Nostalgia & History > SFe manual block-- where and when?

Unlike other western RRs, SFe still had Manual Block rules in their book as late as 1953. (Not in 1959, tho.) Where, if anywhere, were they using MBS in 1953?

The passenger line via La Junta didn't get its ABS completed until around 1929. Did they use Manual Block until then? Anybody seen a pic of a depot with a block signal out front?

(Did a manual-block signal always have three aspects? So a conventional semaphore TO signal wouldn't be good enough?)

This is what I have so far:

Eastern Division, Eastern Lines, ETT C47, April 18, 1926
First District (via Topeka): Manual Block between Holliday and Spencer and between Pauline and Emporia Junction, and on tracks 3 and 4 between Turner, Morris and Holiday. (Notes: ABS between Spencer and Pauline; Holliday -- Westward Station semaphore governs movement of trains via First Dist.; Morris -- Station semaphore governs movement of trains on track 3 only.)

Eastern Division, Eastern Lines, ETT 74B, November 12, 1944.
Trains on 3rd Main track between Holliday and Turner and 4th Main track between Morris and Turner have no timetable superiority and will use only as authorized by train order. Manual Block Rules Govern.

Colorado Division, Western Lines, ETT 78, February 29, 1948.
Pueblo District: Manual Block between Pueblo Jct. and BLOCK 2. (0.3 miles form Pueblo U.D.)
Minnequa District: Manual Block between Minnequa and Pueblo Jct.

Will try to find more.

timz Wrote:
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> Unlike other western RRs, SFe still had Manual
> Block rules in their book as late as 1953. (Not in
> 1959, tho.) Where, if anywhere, were they using
> MBS in 1953?

The 13 Western railroads using Consolidated Code (Santa Fe was not one of 'em) still had MBS rules in their 1959 rulebook.

IIRC, Milwaukee used MBS on portions of the Pacific Extension right up 'till the embargo in 1980. I don't know if any other railroads still used MBS at that time.

MBS did not appear in 1985 General Code, which replaced Consolidated Code.

>
> The passenger line via La Junta didn't get its ABS
> completed until around 1929. Did they use Manual
> Block until then? Anybody seen a pic of a depot
> with a block signal out front?

Milwaukee used the depots' TO signal as an MBS signal.
>
> (Did a manual-block signal always have three
> aspects? So a conventional semaphore TO signal
> wouldn't be good enough?)

Two color and three color signals were both authorized.

timz Wrote:

> The passenger line via La Junta didn't get its ABS
> completed until around 1929. Did they use Manual
> Block until then? Anybody seen a pic of a depot
> with a block signal out front?
>
> (Did a manual-block signal always have three
> aspects? So a conventional semaphore TO signal
> wouldn't be good enough?)

Santa Fe's standard train order semaphore was supposedly adapted from a manual block signal, and it had three color positions. 45 degrees to the upper quadrant was the "yellow" position, which was not used when the signals were used only for train orders.

Leroy Guatney has a postcard photo of the manual block tower at Grote, CO on his website about halfway down this page, but unfortunately no block signal is in the view:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/RR/colodep.html

BCHellman Wrote:
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> Will try to find more.

Am I correct that Manual Block rules do not necessarily imply block signals manually set by operators but rather a mode of operation between open train order stations?

Absolute Block Register systems were used on AT&SF branches into the 1970s, right? Was this covered under MBS or separate rules?

I also thought that Santa Fe kept the MBS rules(aka: Absolute Block)for cases of failure of ATC or ATS equipment on locomotives or running against the current on Rule D-251. This would keep passenger schedules from being overly impacted by low speed operation during equipment malfunctions, maintenance projects etc. Correct?

I'm too lazy to do any research tonight. With Brad, Tim, MTM and Evan on the case, I can just sit back and throw out questions.

:)

Bob

bnsfbob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Am I correct that Manual Block rules do not
> necessarily imply block signals manually set by
> operators but rather a mode of operation between
> open train order stations?

In Manual Block Territory signals are set manually by the operator on duty (as oppose to Automatic Block). For AT&SF, it had its own set of rules -- Manual Block System Rules, rule 305 to 321. But in looking at the 1959 Rulebook, it also shows Manual Block System Rules as well, except they moved to Rules 225 to 240. I don't have a Rulebook later than 1959, so don't know if they existed in later editions.

bnsfbob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Am I correct that Manual Block rules do not
> necessarily imply block signals manually set by
> operators but rather a mode of operation between
> open train order stations?

MANUAL BLOCK SYSTEM - A series of consecutive blocks, governed by block signals operated manually, upon information by telegraph, telephone or other means of communication.
-Consolidated Code definition.

BCHellman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For AT&SF, it had its own set of rules --
> Manual Block System Rules, rule 305 to 321. But in
> looking at the 1959 Rulebook, it also shows Manual
> Block System Rules as well, except they moved to
> Rules 225 to 240.

General Code also used numbers 305 to 321, but also had 322 to 373(A).

I also just noticed a footnote in CCOR, "The following rules 300(A) to 373(A) inclusive apply only to the C.M.St.P.& P. Railroad."

So, I guess the other parties to CCOR did not use MBS in 1959. That note did not appear in the 1945 edition.

In the 1966 Santa Fe rule book there are no rules 225 to 241 (241 governed the manual block signal indications). Where these rules should have been there are blank pages except for the note "LEFT BLANK INTENTIONALLY". It would appear that the manual block rules ended with the April 24, 1966 rule book.

Cliff



BCHellman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bnsfbob Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Am I correct that Manual Block rules do not
> > necessarily imply block signals manually set by
> > operators but rather a mode of operation
> between
> > open train order stations?
>
> In Manual Block Territory signals are set manually
> by the operator on duty (as oppose to Automatic
> Block). For AT&SF, it had its own set of rules --
> Manual Block System Rules, rule 305 to 321. But in
> looking at the 1959 Rulebook, it also shows Manual
> Block System Rules as well, except they moved to
> Rules 225 to 240. I don't have a Rulebook later
> than 1959, so don't know if they existed in later
> editions.

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unlike other western RRs, SFe still had Manual
> Block rules in their book as late as 1953. (Not in
> 1959, tho.) Where, if anywhere, were they using
> MBS in 1953?
>
> The passenger line via La Junta didn't get its ABS
> completed until around 1929. Did they use Manual
> Block until then? Anybody seen a pic of a depot
> with a block signal out front?
>
> (Did a manual-block signal always have three
> aspects? So a conventional semaphore TO signal
> wouldn't be good enough?)

Rule 226 in the 1959 rule book: "Home interlocking and train order signals may be used as manual block signals, and rules applying to manual block signals will apply when so used."

A station with train order signal could not display the "permissive block signal" indication which would allow a following train, other than a passenger train, to enter a occuppied block at restricted speed. At station without manual block signals, a train order was required for a non-passenger train to follow another train into an occuppied block.

Cliff