Nostalgia & History > Why do railroads always timetable East to West?

Why did the freight railroads always timetable eastward and westward? I have a friend who cannot wrap his head around the fact that they did on lines that geographically ran North and South, yet still did. I don't have a good answer as to why, but I know that they did.

Thanks!

I believe the Mopac was a North South RR.
Steve

Because most original RRs were built because of the westward expansion of the US. Go West young man! There are lots of North/South lines however. ACL, SAL, IC main Chicago to New Orleans, Southern, FEC, Cascade line of SP and many others.

Jim

British railways were "Up" and "Down", with Up being towards London, Down being away from London, no matter what the compass direction was. I'm sure India and other British Empire colonies had similar practices involving Capitol cities.

Thankfully, Canada adopted US practices in this regard.

jimleighty Wrote:
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> Because most original RRs were built because of
> the westward expansion of the US. Go West young
> man! There are lots of North/South lines however.
> ACL, SAL, IC main Chicago to New Orleans,
> Southern, FEC, Cascade line of SP and many
> others.
>
> Jim


The SP Cascade line was east-west by timetable before the UP takeover. That was true of all SP lines--if the track headed toward San Francisco it was going west, if away from San Francisco it was going east. This meant that trains from Eugene to Coos Bay were eastward, while trains from Coos Bay to Eugene were westward. The one exception of which I'm aware was the Tillamook Branch, where trains from Tillamook to Willsburg Junction were eastward and those in the other direction were westward. I'm not sure why this was the case (was it because the Tillamook branch headed towards Brooklyn yard, which was railroad east of Willsburg Junction?). Otherwise, the SP clearly understood where the center of the world was.

Weren't timetables listed by direction to aid train operation and dispatching? It seems most rule books I've seen list Superiority of Trains as a train is superior to another train by right, class or direction. This makes direction very important and you would think they just had to pick one direction over another as superior when they wrote the timetables and rules.

Here is a quote from the front of a GTW timetable from 1966. On single track, the superior direction is East or South, and Eastward or Southward trains are, unless otherwise specified, superior to the trains of the same class in the opposite (inferior) direction.

I always like to think that the Eastward trains were superior because they were hauling fresh steaks for my supper! The trains hauling pots and pans heading West, just weren't as important.

On the SP, East away, West towards The City except the Wendel Line.

Nudge

BobB Wrote:

> The SP Cascade line was east-west by timetable
> before the UP takeover. That was true of all SP
> lines--if the track headed toward San Francisco it
> was going west, if away from San Francisco it was
> going east.

Ever heard the terms "Railroad West" or "Railroad East?" The operating direction and schedule numbering of regular trains was a specified vs. geographically-derived parameter in railroad timetables and rulebooks. For most roads, the direction of trains was generally in rough agreement with the compass heading of trains between two division points. However, for railroad operation, the true compass direction didn't really matter and could even be confusing and therefore detrimental to safety. What did matter for safety and efficiency was CONSISTENCY. An example of operational consistency vs. correctness in geographical direction was AT&SF passenger train No. 15, the Texas Chief. This train was carded as Westward in all five AT&SF division timetables from Chicago to Rosenberg Texas, 1,300 miles. However, in terms of compass direction, the train only travelled true compass west for the 60 miles between Holiday and Topeka, KS. For other parts of the train's overnight journey, it was headed compass southwest, south and even southeast (between Wichita and Winfield, KS and Temple and Rosenberg, TX)! From Rosenberg to Houston, TX the Texas Chief operated in an easterly compass direction on trackage rights over Southern Pacific with run-through crews. Santa Fe passenger trains between Tower 17, Rosenberg and the SP station in Houston were run subject to the rules and timetable of Southern Pacific. Therefore, Santa Fe No 15, a westward train, became SP No 54, an eastward train between Tower 17 and Houston. This is not confusing to a railroaders' way of thinking because, in either case, the operational direction was consistently specified by the timetable of the railroad they were operating on.

Bob

Perhaps "way back when" the East had more influence than the West! At least prior to Horace Greeley.
John



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/13 11:30 by FrensicPic.

Sorry, but the Shasta and Cascade lines of SP were North-South lines according to several SP TTs that I own. My 1952 official Guide also indicates the same.

Jim

Simplicity, I guess. We were still East/West on the Oregon Trunk/Gateway until 2003. It was North/South on the UP Cascade sub so for part of the trip we would be traveling timetable North/compass North then timetable East/compass North. As for the timetable directions on the SP Oregon Division everything I have and guys I work with that ran on the SP indicate it was all an East/West railroad. The directions on the Modoc got flipped after the Fernley to Flanigan segment was abandoned and trains started using the WP at Flanigan. Since a Modoc train leaving Klamath Falls could no longer be considered as heading toward San Fransisco timetable Westward they would now be considered as "going away", timetable Eastward. This resulted in the mileposts counting down while traveling timetable East, an anomoly on the SP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/13 12:11 by GN599.

thaddeusthudpucker Wrote:
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> Why did the freight railroads always timetable
> eastward and westward? I have a friend who cannot
> wrap his head around the fact that they did on
> lines that geographically ran North and South, yet
> still did. I don't have a good answer as to why,
> but I know that they did.


Hello,

What you are saying is generally true but there are lots of exceptions to the "E-W rule". There are many RRs that listed stations "north-south" on certain subdivisions. Most RRs did prefer to list stations E-W, but it wasn't "always" done as you say.

Take care,

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/13 16:53 by mamfahr.

This is even true with regard to highways: Odd numbered highways, both US and Interstate, are nominally north and south, but US 101 northbound, from North Hollywood CA to Gaviota (about 30 miles west of Santa Barbara) is almost due west, with one stretch in the city of Santa Barbara heading southwesterly even though it is the northbound side of 101.

jimleighty Wrote:
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> Sorry, but the Shasta and Cascade lines of SP were
> North-South lines according to several SP TTs that
> I own. My 1952 official Guide also indicates the
> same.
>
> Jim


Public timetables (including the Official Guide) may well have said north/south to avoid confusing passengers. For railroaders, however, the employee timetable direction was what mattered and, as BNSFBob described above, the important thing was to be consistent, not geographically accurate. As also mentioned, timetable direction also determined the superiority of trains of the same class, which was important, among other things, for who took the siding at meets.

DNRY122 Wrote:
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> This is even true with regard to highways: Odd
> numbered highways, both US and Interstate, are
> nominally north and south, but US 101 northbound,
> from North Hollywood CA to Gaviota (about 30 miles
> west of Santa Barbara) is almost due west, with
> one stretch in the city of Santa Barbara heading
> southwesterly even though it is the northbound
> side of 101.

Yes, for those of us who love geography and maps, railroad running directions are sometimes confusing, and hearing that Santa Barbara is north of L.A. just doesn't sound right. And my brain can't handle the 101 around the Olympic peninsula in Washington... though I'm curious how it's signed and don't remember what it says in Olympia as you turn north.

On the Pacific Electric Railway back in the day of passenger operations,
employee timetables were either Inbound or Outbound to/from Los Angeles.

Charlie

Santa Fe was mostly an east/west RR. I was always told if it's going TOWARD Chicago, it's an eastbound, If it's going away from Chicago, it's a westbound.

the Pennsylvania Railroad timetabled their railroad from to NY east-west because that was the original line they built and most NY passenger trains headed west in the late 1800s for Chicago, St Louis, Cincinnati at Zoo tower ... they kept the same direction from to NY-PHL so the trains didn't have to change train numbers when heading west in Philly ... when the PRR bought the PHL-WAS section section back in the late 1800s with the railroad passing through Zoo Tower(now Girard interlocking for CETC) in Philly the railroad changes direction in the timetable for the mainline on 1 & 4 River Line tracks the Mile Post changes from MP-88 to MP-0 which is marked on the same mile post marker ... that system is still in place today even though it's geographically north-south from Philly to Boston

spnudge Wrote:
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> On the SP, East away, West towards The City except
> the Wendel Line.
>
> Nudge

The Modoc was westward Texum to Fernley until the SP was granted trackage rights Flanigan to Winnemucca on the WP.

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ddg Wrote:
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> Santa Fe was mostly an east/west RR. I was always
> told if it's going TOWARD Chicago, it's an
> eastbound, If it's going away from Chicago, it's a
> westbound.

Fullerton to National City (San Diego) on the 4th District is (or was) eastward.

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