Nostalgia & History > Is this considered a train order?

If not, what? Special instruction?

---

It's a train order.

amanwtf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a train order.

True, it is on a T.O. sheet. But, I believe I is just a message.

If that's the entire sheet of paper it's just a message. In fact that doesn't even look like a train order form.

There is no "address" (who it's for), no complete date (just "17th"), no order number, I don't know if that is the dispatcher's initials but there's no "complete" time - just a message.

Railbaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If that's the entire sheet of paper it's just a
> message. In fact that doesn't even look like a
> train order form.
>
> There is no "address" (who it's for), no complete
> date (just "17th"), no order number, I don't know
> if that is the dispatcher's initials but there's
> no "complete" time - just a message.

I think it was a TO form, just cut down for a message. It has parts of the formm but not all of it is there.

Message, not an order -- not even an order form.

WrongWayMurphy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If not, what? Special instruction?

Probably a train order but maybe a special instruction.

The two stations mentioned, Fordyce and Pine Bluff indicate this was issued by the St. Louis Southwestern Ry., SSW.
A read of their Uniform Code Of Operating Rules, effective June 2, 1968, tells us the following:

"Rule 203. Numbering.---Train orders, EXCEPT (emphasis mine), Form Q and orders relating to track conditions,
structures and equipment, must be numbered consecutively each day, beginning at midnight."

(A Form Q train order was issued when a new timetable was issued and was apparently used to alert crews of the fact in case they had
missed picking one up when going on duty.)

The words in Rule 203 ..."orders relating to track conditions, structures and equipment...", I suppose could be loosely interpreted to
cover the situation of the ill citizen and as such would fit into the category of an order. Certainly the words would be considered
an instruction but not to the level of special instructions in the timetable.

In today's legal environment I doubt SSW or descendent UP would be disposed to issue such an instruction.

Charlie

cewherry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WrongWayMurphy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If not, what? Special instruction?
>
> Probably a train order but maybe a special
> instruction.
>
> The two stations mentioned, Fordyce and Pine Bluff
> indicate this was issued by the St. Louis
> Southwestern Ry., SSW.
> A read of their Uniform Code Of Operating Rules,
> effective June 2, 1968, tells us the following:
>
> "Rule 203. Numbering.---Train orders, EXCEPT
> (emphasis mine), Form Q and orders relating to
> track conditions,
> structures and equipment, must be numbered
> consecutively each day, beginning at midnight."


That just allowed slows to be in a separate book with a separate series of numbers. This allowed orders to be in effect for more than one day. B&O, among others, didn't have that rule. The third tricker had to take down all the slows and re-issue them every night right after midnight.



>
> (A Form Q train order was issued when a new
> timetable was issued and was apparently used to
> alert crews of the fact in case they had
> missed picking one up when going on duty.)
>
> The words in Rule 203 ..."orders relating to track
> conditions, structures and equipment...", I
> suppose could be loosely interpreted to
> cover the situation of the ill citizen and as such
> would fit into the category of an order. Certainly
> the words would be considered
> an instruction but not to the level of special
> instructions in the timetable.


If it has a number and a complete time, it is a train order. If it does not, it is a message. Special instructions are only in the timetable, so it is certainly not one of those. A message cannot supersede the timetable or rules like a train order can, but this instruction could be done with a message. However, a message would be much harder to prosecute in an investigation because there is no formal means of control (train order signal requiring a clearance - all train orders must be delivered with a clearance). The Wishram (WA) pool crews used to blow by work regularly between Wishram and Pasco. Work? What work. Message? No...can't remember that we got a message. Then TAW bide in on that district. The what message thing happened to me ONCE. After that, when I had a work message stuck out at Roosevelt or Plymouth, it was on a 19 board. The train got a no orders clearance stapled to the message. One conductor even stopped the train and came to the phone to tell me how unfair I was.


>
> In today's legal environment I doubt SSW or
> descendent UP would be disposed to issue such an
> instruction.

It's not the legal part that would bother them, it's the inability to cut jobs and consolidate territories if dispatchers covered such things.

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Wishram (WA) pool crews used to blow by work regularly between
> Wishram and Pasco. Work? What work. Message? No...can't remember
> that we got a message. Then TAW bid in on that district. The what
> message thing happened to me ONCE. After that, when I had a work
> message stuck out at Roosevelt or Plymouth, it was on a 19 board.
> The train got a no orders clearance stapled to the message. One
> conductor even stopped the train and came to the phone to tell me
> how unfair I was.


Yeah, Thomas, I remember working on the Sandy over 40 years ago with Wishram conductors who would often pull that stunt. They couldn't be bothered to get off of their dead rear ends to do a little work. And besides, much of the time it was the head brakeman doing the local work anyway, not them.

Here's an example of a Form 19 flimsie used for a message purpose only. I grabbed it out of the hoop on a westbound at Camas just six weeks after we lost our four daily passenger trains with the advent of Amtrak.

---

Jim700 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Wishram (WA) pool crews used to blow by work
> regularly between
> > Wishram and Pasco. Work? What work. Message?
> No...can't remember
> > that we got a message. Then TAW bid in on that
> district. The what
> > message thing happened to me ONCE. After that,
> when I had a work
> > message stuck out at Roosevelt or Plymouth, it
> was on a 19 board.
> > The train got a no orders clearance stapled to
> the message. One
> > conductor even stopped the train and came to the
> phone to tell me
> > how unfair I was.
>
>
> Yeah, Thomas, I remember working on the Sandy over
> 40 years ago with Wishram conductors who would
> often pull that stunt. They couldn't be bothered
> to get off of their dead rear ends to do a little
> work. And besides, much of the time it was the
> head brakeman doing the local work anyway, not
> them.
>
> Here's an example of a Form 19 flimsie used for a
> message purpose only. I grabbed it out of the
> hoop on a westbound at Camas just six weeks after
> we lost our four daily passenger trains with the
> advent of Amtrak.

Vandals perhaps creating red blocks. Maintainer up against them. Police called.

The good old days...

Posted from Android

The last is just a message. TO Number lined thru and signed by OP, the operator.


Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The last is just a message. TO Number lined thru
> and signed by OP, the operator.
>
>
> Nudge

Yes, Nudge, that is the way I attempted to present it. Perhaps I didn't word it correctly. With the printed section at the very bottom of the page completely void of any information required on a train order, the operator was just putting his job description and a time on the message. In my experience on the SP&S, it was very unusual to get a message on a blank Form 19. Almost always a half letter size page was used that was pre-printed "message".