Nostalgia & History > Some E & F help?

Hi all,

My apologies for what I guess is a dumb question ... I'm always impressed that many of you can tell an F-7 from an E-9 etc etc. What do you look for? How can I make those IDs myself. How do you know???

Please help.

Thank y'all in advance.

Moonshiner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all,
>
> My apologies for what I guess is a dumb question
> ... I'm always impressed that many of you can tell
> an F-7 from an E-9 etc etc. What do you look for?
> How can I make those IDs myself. How do you
> know???
>
> Please help.
>
> Thank y'all in advance.

Well, E units are longer than F units and have six axles versus 4 for F units. As for
telling the various E and F units apart, I would suggest you get a copy of Kalmbach's
"Diesel Spotters Guide" which will give you all the details I can't remember here. It
may be hard to find as they are out of print AFAIK.

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

Also keep in mind that many, probably most, cab units still in service today have been extensively rebuilt. In many cases, this rebuild was done to prepare the units for commuter service in the 1970s and 1980s. 

Many of the spotting features that allowed you to tell an as-built F3 from, say, and F7 or F9 were removed or modified during the rebuilding process.  Port holes disappeared, and various lumps and humps appeared. 

Noteworthy fleets of rebuilt-for-commuter Es and Fs:

MBTA (Boston) fleet of mostly GM&O F3s, rebuilt in the late 1970s, continued in service into the 1990s, then dispersed to a whole bunch of tourist RRs

Amtrak FL9s ( a weird creature with a two axle front truck, and a three axle rear truck) rebuilt for service between Albany and NYC. Several in tourist service

Metra (Chicago) rebuilt a large fleet of Burlington E-units in the 1970s, continued in service into the 1990s. Several in museums or tourist RR service

A small fleet of Fs rebuilt by GE for Pittsburgh, dispersed when Pittsburgh commuter service was abandoned. Some went to Shore Line East, others elsewhere that I can't remember.

This also applies to road switchers and end-cab switchers as well, but your chances of finding an unmodified freight unit are a lot better than finding an unmodified E or F.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/17 19:40 by march_hare.

It should also be noted that there were phases of F unit production. Railfans identify those different phases, while EMD only had model designations. The phases as noted by railfans were determined by external body modifications, while EMD made no such distinctions. A phase 1 F3 for example, may have chicken wire grills and 3 side windows, while the phase 2 version eliminated the center window (porthole). Often, the modifications occurred during production. Later model F7's used FARR vertical grills, which differed from the horizontal grills on the earlier F7's. Side grills between the portholes changed during the later production as well. This is a major spotting feature that carried on into F9 production. F9's, for their part, had an extra side body grill ahead of the forward porthole. The nose, and basic body construction were the same throughout production of F units, beginning with the F3's of 1945 and the end of production of the US produced F9 in 1956.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/17 10:35 by ATSF3751.

To add to the confusion an E3 bears no resemblance to an F3 and on up the model numbers until the E8 and E9 that do have similarities to the F7 and F9. The F-series makes some amount of sense as the designs progress, the E-series matured differently and at different times than the F-series.

The E-series was intended for passenger service including the idea of having two diesel engines per locomotive to reduce the chance of stranding a loaded passenger train. That supports the idea of two of everything on the roof. The F-series was evolved as a freight engine that could be connected together as modules, simply one diesel, one bank of radiators, simple connections to the traction motors, etc.

Locomotive identification has been a very active and popular part of the hobby.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/17 11:31 by TCnR.

TCnR Wrote:
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> To add to the confusion an E3 bears no resemblance
> to an F3 and on up the model numbers until the E8
> and E9 that do have similarities to the F7 and F9.
> The F-series makes some amount of sense as the
> designs progress, the E-series matured differently
> and at different times than the F-series.
>
> The E-series was intended for passenger service
> including the idea of having two diesel engines
> per locomotive to reduce the chance of stranding a
> loaded passenger train.


Not to mention the fact that the 16 cylinder version of the 567 prime mover, hadn't been developed yet, back in the mid to late 1930s, when the E Unit was developed.

That supports the idea of
> two of everything on the roof. The F-series was
> evolved as a freight engine


"evolved"???? How about the FT being specifically developed/designed for FREIGHT SERVICE, in 1938/1939! In fact the FT model designation stood for "F" = Freight, and "T" = Twenty Seven Hundred HP.

that could be
> connected together as modules, simply one diesel,
> one bank of radiators, simple connections to the
> traction motors, etc.
>
> Locomotive identification has been a very active
> and popular part of the hobby.

To add to the discussion, spotting features can be quite numerous and changes during production are often slight and go unnoticed by most of us. However, some changes during production are rather noticeable and can cause mis-identification, even to the point of assigning a model designation that never existed. One such example is the so-called PA3. Alco's famous passenger unit was a single engine passenger locomotive that began production in 1946 and ended in 1954. The first of the series was the PA1, a 2000 HP V-16 powered by the (in)famous 244. It had a distinctive rain gutter the gently came down from the roof behind the cab. This feature was continued into PA2 production. During that production in 1952 with the 2250HP PA2, which BTW had an improved 244 prime mover, Alco changed over to a FARR upper carbody grill, much like the grills found late production F and E units. Anyway, some modelers and fans, and even some model train manufactures designated this model as the PA3. In reality, no such locomotive was produced by Alco. Alco did, in late 1953, offer such a loco with a new prime mover, a 2400HP V-16 251, but received no orders for what would have been a true PA3, and would have had an identical appearance to the later model PA2.
Kinda of a wonky bit of trivia, but for some of us, interesting none the less.

Some very high-caliber responses to a very basic but useful question. An enjoyable read, even for those who can tell a late F7 apart from an F9. (Not a slam dunk!)

Good info. Yay, TO. :-)

~ BZ

The E units had two diesels. Did each diesel power one set of trucks or were they interconnected so each diesel powered both trucks?

needles_sub Wrote:
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> The E units had two diesels. Did each diesel power
> one set of trucks or were they interconnected so
> each diesel powered both trucks?

Confusing question. At any rate, the front (No. 1 engine) powered the front truck, and the rear (no.2 engine) powered the rear truck. No "interconnection".

Moonshiner, I concur that the Diesel Spotters guide is a must, they can be had on E-Bay and via Amazon for a reasonable price.
Alternately there are many sites on the internet that identify specific characteristics, starting with Diesel Shop, Wiki etc

Also the F-2 not many were built however.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> needles_sub Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The E units had two diesels. Did each diesel
> power
> > one set of trucks or were they interconnected
> so
> > each diesel powered both trucks?
>
> Confusing question. At any rate, the front (No. 1
> engine) powered the front truck, and the rear
> (no.2 engine) powered the rear truck. No
> "interconnection".


Yeah, I didn't know how to word it, but you answered my question. Thanks much.

Recommend these books.

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No one has mentioned a magazine called Extra 2200 South. I believe it is no longer published, but for many years starting in the 1970's it was considered the best source for locomotive news, rosters, etc.

I always thought you could just count the rivets?
Gonut