Nostalgia & History > Question For Santa Fe Passenger Train Historians

Why did Santa Fe not place it's passenger train numbers in the engine number boards?

Didn't Most Railroads put their Train News on the Numberboards of there Passenger Trains too?

SLH-

I have no answer to your specific question, yet, one thing is for sure. While they always had fixed numbers in number boxes on steam and number boards on diesels, they definitely used GREEN flags and classification markers/lights, for "sections" following, on their passenger fleet. The flags eventually fell out of favor, but they still were using the classification lights, right up to Amtrak.

Of course, the Santa Fe had many symbolled and numbered freight trains (before the three digit 1xx - 9xx era), yet they pretty much considered them all as "Extras". An exception may have been the old "GFX" (Green Fruit Express) reefer blocks; John Carr, would you care to comment?

Interesting topic; I hope someone can add something more definitive (Evan)......

Take Care,

Bob

ATSF100WEST......Out

My impression that SP held patent on Train # Board. Example
WP GS (built to SP Spec's.)wartime loco's allocated to them by War Production Board had to have the boards removed.

LAIRPORT (nice Harbor District locale)-

Not sure about a SP "patent" on train numbers (in number boxes/boards) - UP used train numbers in their number boxes/boards too - (can't imagine THEM paying anybody a usage fee)......

Bob

ATSF100WEST......Out

Funny. the post above. had an SP Train with it's Train number in the Number Board too. Marked Pre-Caltrain at Brisbane

GP25 Wrote:
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> Didn't Most Railroads put their Train News on the
> Numberboards of there Passenger Trains too?

I'm only aware of the practice on SP, UP, and AAR. It wasn't limited to just passenger trains.

ATSF100WEST Wrote:
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> Interesting topic; I hope someone can add
> something more definitive (Evan)......

Both Regular and Extra trains were indentified by engine number.

LAIRPORT Wrote:
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> My impression that SP held patent on Train #
> Board.

Doubt it. For example, GN and NP Alco RS3s were equipped with the same type of number boards.

> Example
> WP GS (built to SP Spec's.)wartime loco's
> allocated to them by War Production Board had to
> have the boards removed.

Were they actually removed? My recollection from photos is that they merely had black blanks inserted in all five slots.

GP25 Wrote:
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> Funny. the post above. had an SP Train with it's
> Train number in the Number Board too. Marked
> Pre-Caltrain at Brisbane

In 1967, SP discontinued the use of displaying train numbers in the Indicators on all trains EXCEPT on the commute trains.

As an operating practice, Santa Fe didn't use train number indicators, all Diesels had fixed number boards.
An interesting thing I learned was the small letter "L" on the "Lead" units of cab unit sets, it seems that in the early Diesel days when the FT's were semi-permanently coupled (drawbar), all 3 or 4 unit sets were considered 1 "locomotive" and Santa Fe almost never separated them.
Well the story goes that a set was broken up and in a bit of bad luck, a wreck resulted.
I think it was in New Mexico, a freight train was in the hole with orders to wait for 2 passenger trains first section with unit #XX and second section with unit #XX,well the first section went by and the freight crew was confused and thought it was the second section, well you can guess what happened, the freight train entered the main and WHAM!!!
Along comes the second section at about 80 mph head-on, several crew members were killed.
It seems that the someone broke up a 4 unit locomotive as they needed the power for a train, nobody thought about letting loose 2 locomotives with the same number, Santa Fe solved the problem by numbering cab locomotive sets XXLABC or XXLAB, the "C" units carried the letter in the number boards and the "L" units carried a small letter "L" on the yellow stripe just above the buffer.

Tom Helliwell

topper Wrote:
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> ATSF100WEST Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Interesting topic; I hope someone can add
> > something more definitive (Evan)......
>
> Both Regular and Extra trains were indentified by
> engine number.
>

Yes. Operationally, it is not necessary to use train # in the number boards. In train order timetable territory, Santa Fe used train, engine number and flags to I.D regular trains. Here a train order example for a train on duty at Winslow, AZ circa 1954 under Rule 251: "To C&E work extra 2723 West, clear No. 19, Eng 41, 40 mins late."

The SP practice certainly helped Peninsula commute passengers I.D. their proper train (some trains were express or limited stops). The practice continues today, but with the train number on the backside of the engineer's side mirror. Bob

Several folks have explained this partly. Because Santa Fe did not operate Timetable identified numbered freight trains but rather chose to operate them as extra movements there was no reason to provide for train numbers in the indicator boxes except for first class trains. Therefore it was much easier to just identify the few(relativly speaking) passenger movements in train order foremat and afix permanent engine numbers. How many of you SP engine service types didn't have to hunt thru the whole consist to get the correct numbers for the indicators?. BNSF Bob what you refered to as being a train order issued at Winslow was rather a Rule 261 or 251(can't remember which rule#) clearing message. If I recall the proper T.O format; the body of the order would have said something like "Eng. 19C run as No. 24 Mission Tower to San Bernardino." A variation would have been "Engs. 19 and 339 display signals and run as First and Second No.18 Mission Tower to San Bernardino. If you were running as the second section would you display signals? Why or why not? The order would be addressed to all trains on the territory, but for what period of time?. Back to the message example issued at Winslow, it was issued to appraise other trains of the mentioned train(s) real performance, Said message could and many times did list multiple trains. Otherwise in non TCS territority the inferior train would have to clear out on the timetable schedule information. Second question in this test, how far prior to the first class trains arrival did this have to be done in both 251 and 261 territory. Surfliner do your homework. Andy2472