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Canadian Railroads > Runaway avoidance. ....


Date: 02/07/19 06:03
Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: mp208

Perhaps the best way to avoid runaways when trains must change crews...is to ALLOW HOURS OF SERVICE EXTENSION (without penalty) to the outlawing crew ...until they reach a relatively flat section of track profile. Or.....PROHIBIT LEAVING A TRAIN UNATTENDED on any grade exceeding .5 %; also allowing HOS EXTENSION WITHOUT PENALTY

Posted from Android



Date: 02/07/19 06:17
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: ghemr

 With this idea, the crew would now have to work more than 12+ hours which is already too long. A better idea would be to have the train dispatcher stop the train on the 10th hour for the purpose of securing the train and then getting the crew into the van to take them back to the terminal or motel. In my opinion crews should not be on duty more than 12 hours total which includes transportation. Personally speaking, on the twelveth hour my goal was to be back in my auto driving home----not babysitting trains, tying handbrakes, waiting for the crew van, etc....



Date: 02/07/19 06:22
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: Lackawanna484

Do pilot scheduled hours of service end with delivery to the hotel?

That sounds like a good precedent.

Posted from Android



Date: 02/07/19 09:06
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: WAF

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do pilot scheduled hours of service end with
> delivery to the hotel?
>
> That sounds like a good precedent.
>
> Posted from Android
Hours of service end at the gate



Date: 02/07/19 09:49
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: Lackawanna484

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Do pilot scheduled hours of service end with
> > delivery to the hotel?
> >
> > That sounds like a good precedent.
> >
> > Posted from Android
> Hours of service end at the gate


So the waiting for a taxi part is on the pilot's own rest time?



Date: 02/07/19 10:02
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: eminence_grise

Canada has only had mandatory rest requirements following the 1988 Foisy Commission

However, there have been collective agreement rest clauses much longer. CP and CN rest clauses are different

Mandatory rest takes place after 12 hours on duty, at which time the crew members are relieved of responsibility (operating the controls, copying operating authority). The rules allow other tasks to be performed after 12 hours in an emergency.

However, so that the railway doesn’t abuse this emergency provision, the crew gets paid a minimum day for performing duties after 12 hours



Date: 02/07/19 12:09
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: CA_Sou_MA_Agent

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do pilot scheduled hours of service end with delivery to the hotel?


It should. Giving the Carrier the latitude of being able to turn the hours-of-service clock on and off like a light switch invites abuse by the Carrier.  



Date: 02/07/19 13:41
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: ShortlinesUSA

Duty ends 15 minutes after block-in at the destination gate, and begins 45 minutes prior to departure.  Most layovers at the major carriers far exceed the FAA minimum-required rest, so transportation time does eat into your layover, but is usually not that bad.  If the layover has been significantly shortened by delays, there may be a provision for the crew to contact scheduling to declare a minimum "behind the door" period at the hotel depending on the carrier's contract.  Regardless, you cannot go below the minimum rest period.  If a flight gets in late enough to be below minimum rest for the crew, it will be leaving late the next morning, as the crew will take minimum required rest.


Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WAF Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Do pilot scheduled hours of service end with
> > > delivery to the hotel?
> > >
> > > That sounds like a good precedent.
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
> > Hours of service end at the gate
>
>
> So the waiting for a taxi part is on the pilot's
> own rest time?



Date: 02/07/19 14:16
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: Lackawanna484

For several years I commuted between Newark and San Diego. The crew and aircraft which came into San Diego around 10pm was the 8 am flight back to NJ.  When the incoming flight was delayed, our outbound morning flight would be, too.

HOS was pretty absolute, or was back in 2006-2008. I understood that Continental / United had a contract provision assuring a period of rest with hotel doors closed, no crew call.



Date: 02/07/19 17:33
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: ShortlinesUSA

Absolutely.  Call the crew during their rest, and the reply was "I will be resetting my rest clock now."  



Date: 02/07/19 20:12
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: PHall

ShortlinesUSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely.  Call the crew during their rest, and
> the reply was "I will be resetting my rest clock
> now."  

Works that way in the Air Force too. Violate our crew rest and you're the one who get's to explain it to the Tanker-Airlift Control Center at Scott AFB, IL.
Not the way to get noticed by the boss.



Date: 02/08/19 00:05
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: AZSP

ghemr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>  With this idea, the crew would now have to work
> more than 12+ hours which is already too long. A
> better idea would be to have the train dispatcher
> stop the train on the 10th hour for the purpose of
> securing the train and then getting the crew into
> the van to take them back to the terminal or
> motel. In my opinion crews should not be on duty
> more than 12 hours total which includes
> transportation. Personally speaking, on the
> twelveth hour my goal was to be back in my auto
> driving home----not babysitting trains, tying
> handbrakes, waiting for the crew van, etc....

In this case, the crew was near the end of their service. If setting handbrakes would cause them to exceed their limits, should they stop at 12 hours?

Posted from iPhone



Date: 02/08/19 06:32
Re: Runaway avoidance. ....
Author: WW

AZSP Wrote:

> In this case, the crew was near the end of their
> service. If setting handbrakes would cause them
> to exceed their limits, should they stop at 12
> hours?
>
> Posted from iPhone

Most railroads have some sort of safety rule or timetable instruction that says, in effect, "When in doubt, the safe course must always be taken."   So, in the hypothetical case described above, if the train could not be safely secured with handbrakes within the hours of service of the crew and the relief crew would not arrive in time to do so, then the crew should take the safe course and work beyond their 12 hour limit to secure the train.  Since they would likely be in contact with the Dispatcher, they would likely report to him/her to the effect that the train could not be secured safely within their hours of service and they would thus have to exceed those hours to service to do so if the relief crew was not there to do it.  

Now, there could follow a debate about how and why the crew got into or was placed in a position of exceeding their hours of service, but it is plain illogical to think that a train crew, under any circumstance where another crew was not present or able to secure the train, should leave a train in a condition that could potentially cause a runaway if they could prevent it.

What exactly happened in this tragic incident has yet to be determined and/or disclosed, but what can be surmised is that the train was not sufficiently secured with handbrakes to hold it when the air brakes released.  How and/or why that happened would be a focus of the investigation, I would think.



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