Canadian Railroads > Question regarding Via Renaissance cars.

The Renaissance cars began life as the "Nightstar" sleeping cars planned for Channel Tunnel service.

As such, they were a modified standard coach design used throughout the UK.  They had an issue that when fitted out as sleeping cars, they were too heavy for some routes in the UK.

However, I am not aware of rolling stock in the UK becoming candidates for scrap as quickly as the Via Renaissance cars.  Although the lengths of journeys are much shorter, typically long distance coaches travelling from London to Scotland make two or three rotations in a day.

While I believe the LRC cars may be wearing out, I'm not sure that is true of the Renaissance cars. 

The Rens are solid and smooth riding. You just don't get the rattles and vibrations of other cars. The sleepers have substantial partitions between the cabins and very quiet.

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I rode Mark-III cars when last in the UK in 1993. They were all tradtional flat-floored coaches. None had the raised seating platform and strange seats like the REN cars, which I think are derivatives of the Mark-IV. 

The Rens are flat floored also. The coaches have the raised platform which allows you to slide luggage in under the seat from the front. Its closed at the back so better security for your belongings. The single seats on one side are great for persons travelling alone especially for overnight

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joemvcnj Wrote:
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> I rode Mark-III cars when last in the UK in 1993.
> They were all tradtional flat-floored coaches.
> None had the raised seating platform and strange
> seats like the REN cars, which I think are
> derivatives of the Mark-IV. 

A good overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

 

So then I am confused........

Why then is VIA claiming that the Renaissance cars are maintenance prone and need to be retired due to the cost to maintain them. It's been said they are an "operational nightmare," despite being the newest pieces of equipment that VIA owns or has purchased. And this purchase increased VIA's fleet by one-third, so it was a significant purchase and allowed VIA to have some fleet flexibility. 

What are the Reniassance maintenance issues specifically? I know they had to make modifications to winterize the fleet, allow for low level boarding, build out "transition cars," etc., but these issues were all met with a solution. I thought there was some under-carriage corrosion going on that was compromising the integrity of the cars, but I never got any official confirmation of that. 

I mentioned in another thread that I thought the interiors of the Renaissance sleepers still looked pretty good, and that from the interior alone, it would seem that these cars have aged gracefully, unlike Amtrak's Viewliner sleepers. The Renaissance cars, especially the sleepers, also rode a lot smoother over the rails. The interior of the VIA Renaissance sleeper also look more modern and sleek. I had hoped that the Renaissance sleepers would at least have some extra life in them so they could be operated into the future. 

VIA did have enough Renaissance equipment (sleepers, diners, transition cars, coaches, service cars etc.) to operate three sets of equipment for the Ocean and two sets of equipment for the Enterprise (since discontinued). In terms of long distance equipment, only enough cars were built out to outfit  these two trains; the Chaleur (train to Gaspe) was supposed to be outfitted with Renaissance cars, but never was. Car shells were stored in Thunder Bay for future assembly and for any VIA expansion. That was never done either.  

So what are the issues with the Renaissance equipment - are the coaches worse than the sleepers, or vice versa?                                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

The first "Nightstar" equipment dates from 1997, making the Renaissance Cars just 22 years old.

Since railway privatization in the UK, most of the rolling stock is owned by ROSCO's, which lease and maintain the equipment to TOC's (train operating companies). The TOC's lease the equipment until it comes time for a major rebuild. In some cases, new equipment replaces the old, and in others , the equipment gets a mid-life refurbishment. Sometimes, the rebuilt equipment is leased to other TOC's.

Given that , the expected life span of ROSCO owned equipment is expected to be the 35 to 40 years which older railway equipment had.

ROSCO's have an advantage that Via doesn't, they can rebuild and refurbish equipment for multiple customers.

Here's a question, would there be a market for the Renaissance cars outside of North America?  The whole Nightstar fiasco is long forgotten, and a bunch of Mark 4 equipment at knock down prices could be remanufactured by a ROSCO for European use.(Via only paid $130 million for $400 million worth of equipment)

In reality, were the Renaissance cars still in Europe in Nightstar or similar service, they would be approaching their mid-life major rebuild , possibly to be re-purposed. Certainly, equipment like the running gear and brake systems would be re-used, as well as much of the interior furmishings.
Perhaps Via will offer the cars up for sale and they will be re-used in North America, or they could be donated to Cuba.

I forget who was the UK Prime Minister at the time of the Nightstar issue, but they had become a political embarrasment and the powers that be wanted them to vanish. Great idea "Send them to the Colonies, we never want to see them again".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/19 10:37 by eminence_grise.

ghCBNS Wrote:
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> The Rens are flat floored also. The coaches have
> the raised platform which allows you to slide
> luggage in under the seat from the front. Its
> closed at the back so better security for your
> belongings. The single seats on one side are great
> for persons travelling alone especially for
> overnight

This shows the raised platform and how luggage can be slid down-under the seats.

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I rode in the Renaissance sleeping car on the Ocean awhile ago and found it to be attractive but the bed seemed especially narrow. I am about the same physical size now as then and when I rode RENFE in Spain in 1989. There I traveled by sleeper between Madrid and Santiago de Compostela and between Lisbon and Madrid. On both routes the bed seemed about standard size- as in a Via roomette (I prefer the old term). That being said, the ex-CP Budd built sleeper on the Enterprise was quite noisy vs. the much quieter Ren sleeper on the Ocean.

In 1990 I rode by sleeping car in the UK between London and Penzance, London and Inverness and Glasgow and London. The rolling stock was older- still relatively quiet and yet the beds seemed standard size. However, it may be all in my perception at the time. I did not take measurements.

Jeff Geldner
Sequoia National Park, CA 

jeffgeldner Wrote:
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> I rode in the Renaissance sleeping car on the
> Ocean awhile ago and found it to be attractive but
> the bed seemed especially narrow.
...
Several years ago I measured many aspects of the Renaissance sleepers. The beds are four inches narrower than those in the Budd sleepers. The Budd sleepers' beds are two feet eight inches wide and those in Renaissance are two feet four inches wide. The Ren. beds are one inch longer.

In recent discussion the smooth and quiet riding of the Rens. has been discussed. There is another benefit of travelling in Renaissance in winter. On a trip on the Ocean  a few weeks ago we went through a blizzard from Drummondville to just before Moncton. Not a flake of snow or chunk of ice got into the train - except for the vestibule of the Park car. One of our friends who is not pleased dealing with mounds of ice and snow whilst walking through the Canadian was impressed. The wide solid diaphragms and the lack of vestibules provide an easy walk through the train. Not only is the snow and ice kept out, but also much of the cold. Many of the cars had their sliding doors propped open even though it was bitterly cold outside. One of the sleeping car attendants showed me something I had not noticed before: the VIA-designed and built retractable steps are heated, which obviously makes it easier to deal with station stops. 

One other thing I should mention is that I have never had my shower freeze up on a Renaissance sleeper. I have had several autumn and winter trips on the Canadian and the former Chaleur when every shower in all three or more sleepers has frozen.

I don't know the particulars of the problems this equipment has had from harsh Maritime winters - I hear talk of corrosion - but I wish VIA could keep them going. I stopped counting my sleeper trips in Renaissance after 30 (that includes the former overnight Toronto-Montreal Enterprise as well as the Ocean) and I continue to be fond of them.