Canadian Railroads > Extra Stack Trains

There has really only been one stack train into and out of Halifax each day since 2009, when CN eliminated trains 122/123, and combined them with 120/121 for a train that is usually over 10,000 feet, and sometimes as much as 14,000 ft. long.  But even with a DPU, a train that long is difficult to get air brakes working properly in the winter time (120 has spent literally hours in Moncton this past winter pumping air before they could leave for Halifax), and sometimes other logistical reasons mean that CN will run X120 or X121 trains, between Halifax and Montreal. 

One example happened on March 16, when single ES44AC 3803 was on the transfer track, making up X121 just before 17:00.  121 usually leaves from the main line (next to the retaining wall in the first image), but VIA 14 was not in yet, and would use the main line to go downtown.

Once 14 was clear at Millview, X121 was able to get under way, and I was able to get a couple different shots at Moirs Mills just before 18:00 that evening, a good two hours before the regular 121 would be due to leave.  This train was somewhat uncommon in having just one unit up front (and a single DPU somewhere in the middle), despite being over 7000 feet in length.

GTD

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The next day, we had a repeat performance, except with the eastbound trains, 120 and X120.  This time the regular train ran first (although several hours later than it should have been), shown here with a variety of power up front (ET44AC 3020, former Conrail Dash-8, GECX 7342, and former C&NW Dash-8, now CN 2129) at Brookfield, NS.

Just 20 minutes behind was the extra, this time hauled by a pair of SD70M-2s, passing the switch to the cement plant spur, about a mile farther east on the Bedford Sub.

GTD

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Great pics!

I find it interesting that CN only runs one stack each way usually. Isn’t Halifax the main eastern port? Or does stack traffic transfer somewhere on the river, like Montreal?

Nice shots!!

zorz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I find it interesting that CN only runs one stack
> each way usually. Isn’t Halifax the main eastern
> port? Or does stack traffic transfer somewhere on
> the river, like Montreal?

Montreal certainly handles a lot of container traffic, and Quebec City is trying to get a piece of the action too.  I'm not sure of the exact proportions, but with CP factored in, there are certainly more TEUs going through Montreal than Halifax.  Shipping by ocean is cheaper than rail, although it takes longer, therefore it makes some economic sense to maximize the water portion of the route.  Balancing that is that a ship can make more ocean crossings in a year if is doesn't have to go as far up river as Montreal, but with an oversupply of container ships these days, that may not be much of a factor.  Grain (low value and not time sensitive) almost all goes through Montreal and Quebec, even though there are grain elevators in Halifax.

In the late '90s and early 2000s, there were three pairs of trains into Halifax each day, all carrying containers, 120/121, 137/138 and 148/149.  136 handled the "junk" for Halifax, while 148 carried autoracks and anything else for Dartmouth, along with containers.  The Dartmouth stuff would be set off at Kinsac to be picked up by a local out of Dartmouth.  These trains were typically only 5-6000 feet and were hauled by a pair of 4000 HP locomotives.  As the economy slowed down in the mid 2000s, 137/138 was eliminated, and later the same thing happened to 148/149, replaced by 122/123 (formerly a Moncton intermodal train) "when needed".  Meanwhile 120/121 kept getting longer, and 408/407 was added to handle junk between Moncton and Truro/Dartmouth.

There is still plenty of ship capacity in Halifax, and the southern piers at Halterm are not encumbered by the air draft of the harbour bridges. (One of them is visible in the background of the first picture.)  Although the air draft of the bridges is higher than the Quebec Bridge on the St. Lawrence, some ships going to Ceres (the northern terminal in Halifax) still can only get through at low tide and by adjusting their ballast.  CN has been making noises about buying Halterm (they had an ownership stake when it was first built in the late '60s, since sold), so there is optimism among CN employees that they will eventually have to add another train on a permanent basis.

GTD
 

Wow - thanks for the detailed explanation :)

cn6218 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> zorz Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I find it interesting that CN only runs one
> stack
> > each way usually. Isn’t Halifax the main
> eastern
> > port? Or does stack traffic transfer somewhere
> on
> > the river, like Montreal?
>
> Montreal certainly handles a lot of container
> traffic, and Quebec City is trying to get a piece
> of the action too.  I'm not sure of the exact
> proportions, but with CP factored in, there are
> certainly more TEUs going through Montreal than
> Halifax.  Shipping by ocean is cheaper than rail,
> although it takes longer, therefore it makes some
> economic sense to maximize the water portion of
> the route.  Balancing that is that a ship can
> make more ocean crossings in a year if is doesn't
> have to go as far up river as Montreal, but with
> an oversupply of container ships these days, that
> may not be much of a factor.  Grain (low value
> and not time sensitive) almost all goes through
> Montreal and Quebec, even though there are grain
> elevators in Halifax.
>
> In the late '90s and early 2000s, there were three
> pairs of trains into Halifax each day, all
> carrying containers, 120/121, 137/138 and
> 148/149.  136 handled the "junk" for Halifax,
> while 148 carried autoracks and anything else for
> Dartmouth, along with containers.  The Dartmouth
> stuff would be set off at Kinsac to be picked up
> by a local out of Dartmouth.  These trains were
> typically only 5-6000 feet and were hauled by a
> pair of 4000 HP locomotives.  As the economy
> slowed down in the mid 2000s, 137/138 was
> eliminated, and later the same thing happened to
> 148/149, replaced by 122/123 (formerly a Moncton
> intermodal train) "when needed".  Meanwhile
> 120/121 kept getting longer, and 408/407 was added
> to handle junk between Moncton and
> Truro/Dartmouth.
>
> There is still plenty of ship capacity in Halifax,
> and the southern piers at Halterm are not
> encumbered by the air draft of the harbour
> bridges. (One of them is visible in the background
> of the first picture.)  Although the air draft of
> the bridges is higher than the Quebec Bridge on
> the St. Lawrence, some ships going to Ceres (the
> northern terminal in Halifax) still can only get
> through at low tide and by adjusting their
> ballast.  CN has been making noises about buying
> Halterm (they had an ownership stake when it was
> first built in the late '60s, since sold), so
> there is optimism among CN employees that they
> will eventually have to add another train on a
> permanent basis.
>
> GTD
>  

Posted from iPhone

Very NICE series!

Larry

cn6218 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> zorz Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I find it interesting that CN only runs one
> stack
> > each way usually. Isn’t Halifax the main
> eastern
> > port? Or does stack traffic transfer somewhere
> on
> > the river, like Montreal?
>
> Montreal certainly handles a lot of container
> traffic, and Quebec City is trying to get a piece
> of the action too.  I'm not sure of the exact
> proportions, but with CP factored in, there are
> certainly more TEUs going through Montreal than
> Halifax.  Shipping by ocean is cheaper than rail,
> although it takes longer, therefore it makes some
> economic sense to maximize the water portion of
> the route.  Balancing that is that a ship can
> make more ocean crossings in a year if is doesn't
> have to go as far up river as Montreal, but with
> an oversupply of container ships these days, that
> may not be much of a factor.  Grain (low value
> and not time sensitive) almost all goes through
> Montreal and Quebec, even though there are grain
> elevators in Halifax.
>
> In the late '90s and early 2000s, there were three
> pairs of trains into Halifax each day, all
> carrying containers, 120/121, 137/138 and
> 148/149.  136 handled the "junk" for Halifax,
> while 148 carried autoracks and anything else for
> Dartmouth, along with containers.  The Dartmouth
> stuff would be set off at Kinsac to be picked up
> by a local out of Dartmouth.  These trains were
> typically only 5-6000 feet and were hauled by a
> pair of 4000 HP locomotives.  As the economy
> slowed down in the mid 2000s, 137/138 was
> eliminated, and later the same thing happened to
> 148/149, replaced by 122/123 (formerly a Moncton
> intermodal train) "when needed".  Meanwhile
> 120/121 kept getting longer, and 408/407 was added
> to handle junk between Moncton and
> Truro/Dartmouth.
>
> There is still plenty of ship capacity in Halifax,
> and the southern piers at Halterm are not
> encumbered by the air draft of the harbour
> bridges. (One of them is visible in the background
> of the first picture.)  Although the air draft of
> the bridges is higher than the Quebec Bridge on
> the St. Lawrence, some ships going to Ceres (the
> northern terminal in Halifax) still can only get
> through at low tide and by adjusting their
> ballast.  CN has been making noises about buying
> Halterm (they had an ownership stake when it was
> first built in the late '60s, since sold), so
> there is optimism among CN employees that they
> will eventually have to add another train on a
> permanent basis.
>
> GTD
>  

Question:  Can Montreal handle the big new container ships (Halifax as well), or are those ships not really in use on these marine lines?

I've looked at many of the the photos of trains 120/121 posted on here over the years and still come away baffled by how huge CN runs them - it just doesn't sound competitive to gain business (speaking primarily of domestic intermodal here).  Maybe this comes from the fact that living in the western US, I have absolutely no idea about this area of North America. 

In talking about CN offering a competitive service, I'm mostly referring to the domestic intermodal that competes with truck service.  I notice that CN seems to handle a good deal of domestic intermodal containers on these trains, even though they are monsters.  Typically, running large trains like this that are combined with other traffic (carload business) isn't very time sensitive competitive truck wise (ie these trains usually work enroute and so they tend to have slow running times and get delayed a lot).  In addition, this doesn't seem like a very long haul for intermodal, something else that makes trucks more competitive.  Is it because the highways in the Maritimes tend to be slow as well, allowing railroads to compete, even though that CN doesn't seem to run trains very "hot"?

As I said, I'm looking at this through the eyes of what happens down here in the states where railroads have a hard time competing with trucks, especially in short and medium haul markets, so they really have to run the "hot" intermodal trains fast with little chances of delays.

Thanks.  Just always been curious about this.

spwolfmtn Wrote:

> Question:  Can Montreal handle the big new
> container ships (Halifax as well), or are those
> ships not really in use on these marine lines?
>
Montreal is limited by the clearance underneath the Quebec Bridge at Quebec City.  I'm pretty sure the largest ships these days cannot fit underneath it.  The port of Quebec City doesn't have that problem because it is farther downriver than the bridge.  There is no clearance problem at Halterm in Halifax, although dredging will be required.  I think Halterm has at least one crane that can reach all the way across the biggest container ships.

> I've looked at many of the the photos of trains
> 120/121 posted on here over the years and still
> come away baffled by how huge CN runs them - it
> just doesn't sound competitive to gain business
> (speaking primarily of domestic intermodal
> here).  Maybe this comes from the fact that
> living in the western US, I have absolutely no
> idea about this area of North America. 

There isn't that much domestic intermodal for Halifax.  Even if you include Newfoundland (which has weekly container and RO-RO service from Halifax), the region is only about 2 million people.  Local intermodal traffic into Halifax is only about two dozen platforms each day, and a similar number to Moncton.

> In talking about CN offering a competitive
> service, I'm mostly referring to the domestic
> intermodal that competes with truck service.  I
> notice that CN seems to handle a good deal of
> domestic intermodal containers on these trains,
> even though they are monsters.  Typically,
> running large trains like this that are combined
> with other traffic (carload business) isn't very
> time sensitive competitive truck wise (ie these
> trains usually work enroute and so they tend to
> have slow running times and get delayed a lot). 
> In addition, this doesn't seem like a very long
> haul for intermodal, something else that makes
> trucks more competitive.  Is it because the
> highways in the Maritimes tend to be slow as well,
> allowing railroads to compete, even though that CN
> doesn't seem to run trains very "hot"?
>
120/121 may be a big train, but that doesn't mean it is slow.  It will run at 55-60 mph where the track permits.  45 mph is the minimum speed for most of the route between Montreal and Halifax.  It does have some heavy grades (steepest mainline grade on CN is the first 15 miles out of Halifax, about 1.6%, not including BC Rail), so it needs 3 or 4 big units for these trains.  They typically operate as 1+1 DPUs west of Joffre (Quebec City).

> As I said, I'm looking at this through the eyes of
> what happens down here in the states where
> railroads have a hard time competing with trucks,
> especially in short and medium haul markets, so
> they really have to run the "hot" intermodal
> trains fast with little chances of delays.
>
> Thanks.  Just always been curious about this.

Despite the fact that CN has no rail competition here, they seem to do well (the truckers must keep them honest).  They do a good business with Canadian Tire (usually a CP customer), and many of those 53 ft. CN containers end up at the loading docks of the area's WalMart stores.  Many of them go back west loaded with Michelin tires from the three tire plants in Nova Scotia.

GTD