Canadian Railroads > VIA Panorama Cars - Status

Anyone know the status of the three ex-BC Panorama Cars that VIA purchased as part of a bulk sale from BC Rail back in 2004 or so?

I LOVED these passenger cars with their wrap-around windows. They were ideal for the Skeena train (sorry train #5/6) with its Totem Deluxe Class. Loved when it was on that route - really fitting and made it special with upscale "Touring" service.......These cars were then transferred to be on the Canadian from Edmonton to Vancouver (cut in/out) of the consist at Edmonton. I know some people liked the Panorama Cars on the Canadian, but the Canadian already had Skyline Dome cars etc. so it was great to have them on the Skeena (train #5/6) for a special "Touring Class" service. They'd even be ideal for the Ocean right now that has NO real "lounge" car. 

I heard they had excessive corrosion or some sort of maintenance issues when VIA had looked to restore them to service after the Canadian started up after COVID - so they pulled them. The Panorama Cars were spotted moving from Montreal to Toronto and I even think to Vancouver on a move or two, but nothing beyond that! 

Anyone know its current status? 

Or how about the other "lounge" car that VIA purchased from ex-BC Rail as part of that bulk sale - it was named "Fraser" or something along those lines. 

If they could be fixed up and purchased, I would think that Rocky Mountaineer would DEFINITELY be interested in buying the cars with its plan to expand services and need for more capacity. 

If ever a route cried out for them it would be the sad little Skeena train which carries fewer people most days than a city bus.  A friend was just on it with 12 people leaving Jasper.  No doubt making it a huge target when  budget cuts are needed.  It offers mediocre premade sandwiches now so something like these cars, commanding a high fare, say, $250pp CAD per day would really help that trains bottom line.  

I do not have the time for figure it out but with the current service, I think only one trainset is needed for the Skeena.  Via which used to have great imagination seems to falling into the Amtrak pattern of anything that is new and could help ridership is bad or too much trouble.

As I recall, Rocky Mountaineer wanted those cars but it was outbid by VIA, and I believe the Skeena (former Skeena, should still be Skeena) uses two trainsets now. I wish VIA would give up the Rocky Mountaineer service pattern on the Skeena and again make it an overnight train connecting to the Canadian, but I don't think VIA's interested in any kind of innovation any more and long ago decided that route connectivity isn't worth it.

NPRocky Wrote:
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> As I recall, Rocky Mountaineer wanted those cars
> but it was outbid by VIA, and I believe the Skeena
> (former Skeena, should still be Skeena) uses two
> trainsets now. I wish VIA would give up the Rocky
> Mountaineer service pattern on the Skeena and
> again make it an overnight train connecting to the
> Canadian, but I don't think VIA's interested in
> any kind of innovation any more and long ago
> decided that route connectivity isn't worth it.

VIA Rail Canada seemed to have a real great "Western" marketing team in the mid to late 1990s. There were many different ideas that did and didn't come to fruition but it was at least a "creative" and "imaginative time." In the mid 1990s the Skeena was re-launched as a "day time train" that built upon its spectacular British Columbia ever-changing scenery along the route. It's a spectacular route that I used to travel a lot on - but only when the "Touring" or premium service was offered.

VIA stopped running this train as a direct Jasper to Prince Rupert train with sleeper, dining, etc. and made it day light only with the overnight stop in Prince George. The sleeper(s) were pulled and the Skyline Dome or Park Car added so passengers would be attracted for the scenery and better "touring" service amenities. After the Panorama cars were purchased, VIA really stepped UP the game. The Panorama cars were launched on this route - all three - and VIA expanded the Skeena service to FOUR days a week with trains offering the Panorama cars with deluxe dining and in cars that were just PERFECT for soaking up the scenery along this train's route. I remember leaving westward from Jasper toward Prince Rupert and being served a shrimp cocktail as we were rounding Mt. Robson. Not kidding! That was how impeccable VIA was launching this service with the upscale meals etc. AND Totem Deluxe Class was north of  $500 CAD for the full trip from Jasper to Prince Rupert. 

There was coach class, Totem Class (in a VIA 1 corridor coach), and then Totem Deluxe Class in the Panorama car. I believe all meals etc. were prepared using the kitchen in the VIA 1 corridor coach car. All Totem class passengers had "access" the Park Car's bullet lounge and scenic dome that brought up the rear. It was GREAT!!! Passenger counts did increase with the service, and the marketing team was lobbying to get the Skeena extended from Jasper to Edmonton so they could reach a major city with an airport. THAT'S what would have made the service take off I think and it was a good PLAN! That was also a restoration of the Skeena to originate back at Edmonton. The team thought they had the Edmonton extension for the Skeena. When this was denied, the air just seemed to POP right out the "Western" marketing group's balloon. They were also looking for six day a week service between Jasper and Vancouver. The only thing that did come to reality - the Panorama cars were used as a "ski train" in winter (Friday to Sunday) with extra frequency to transport folks from Edmonton to Jasper. 

Eventually Totem Deluxe and Totem Class was changed into "Touring Class" - which is a name that I like and could be better used to describe service than "business class" for some Amtrak trains). The Panorama cars were taken off the Skeena, except for one, that traversed the route on "certain days" with the "Touring Class" upgrade/option. VIA put the other two Panorama cars on the Edmonton to Vancouver section of the Canadian. I think that all lasted up to COVID. And then that was it. The Panorama cars never came back and were found by VIA maintenance to have issues. I even believe I read an article that the marketing department was advertising their re-launch post-COVID, but the maintenance department then surprisingly said forget it, these cars are not going back into operation!

Takes TWO train sets to operate the Skeena Service. At Prince George you the eastbound and westbound "lined up" and back to back at the station leaving Prince George for either Prince Rupert or Jasper. 

Now that the Skeena has lost the former marketing support and "re-imagined service" that it once had - I also think they should just convert this train BACK to a run-through and overnight train between EDMONTON and Prince Rupert via Jasper and Prince George. I'd try to get the service restored back to Edmonton so it could offer some sort of hope to Jasper, especially now after the fire. 

JP you always have the most intelligent and informed posts on trainorders.com.

I remember this period when the Via marketing folks did great things with the skeena and they are long gone. Soon would be the time to revive this for skeena since rocky mountaineer is ending the service from quesnel to Jasper next year. You can see how much money via is leaving on the table by the fact that rocky is getting $3Kpp for much of this route between quesnel and Jasper.

The current skeena is a hassle for most normal travelers having to book crappy hotels and transfers separately twice in both prince rupert and prince George which takes some homework and effort. If you wanted to put roadblocks in the way of people using a service this is what you would do.

So yes at this point reverting to an overnight train that ran Edmonton to prince rupert via Jasper would make the most sense.

I think via has zero interest in this route and suspect it to fall victim to cost cutting sooner rather than later.

Posted from Android

I don't disagree that VIA could do more to promote and orient service towards the short, summertime tourist season, and through travellers between Jasper and Prince Rupert.  However, I believe something is being missed in the above discussion of Via's missed opportunties on marketing and scheduling.  The Skeena's purpose is utility in nature; serving the numerous remote and fairly isolated communities in the Robson Valley, and Upper Skeena Region.  While that ridership from those locations is light during the peak tourist season, many more use the train during the long winters, and other periods where inclement weather makes vehicle traffic over the dirt backroads, and forest service roads that are the only other way to access some of the communities challenging.  The daytime schedule in both directions caters to getting people from those areas to the regional hub in Prince George inexpensively, and during times that are more convenient than a station stop in the middle of the night on a through train.

Outside of driving, or taking the train, the only other option is a bus service twice per week between Prince George and Prince Rupert.  From an intermediate stop in the Upper Skeena, such as Cedarvale, the rider would need to get a lift, or drive 12 miles over the dirt backroad to Kitwanga, and then take the bus to PG.  7 hours and 25 minutes transit time. $93.40 CAD including tax. 

The same trip on the train, directly from Cedarvale to PG takes 8 hours and 44 minutes, and costs $73.50 including tax.  Service every other day.

This train, as all of VIA's long distance trains are, is propped up on government subsidies.  The voters in the north, are more likely to support a train service that caters service closer to their needs, than one that caters to tourists during a short period of the year.  I'm all for putting in a touring class, and an extra car for sightseeing during peak and shoulder tourist seasons, but what keeps the government doling out the money for this train's existence is not for those that would be taking advantage of that class.


 

BoostedFridge Wrote:
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> I don't disagree that VIA could do more to promote
> and orient service towards the short, summertime
> tourist season, and through travellers between
> Jasper and Prince Rupert.  However, I believe
> something is being missed in the above discussion
> of Via's missed opportunties on marketing and
> scheduling.  The Skeena's purpose is utility in
> nature; serving the numerous remote and fairly
> isolated communities in the Robson Valley, and
> Upper Skeena Region.  While that ridership from
> those locations is light during the peak tourist
> season, many more use the train during the long
> winters, and other periods where inclement weather
> makes vehicle traffic over the dirt backroads, and
> forest service roads that are the only other way
> to access some of the communities challenging. 
> The daytime schedule in both directions caters to
> getting people from those areas to the regional
> hub in Prince George inexpensively, and during
> times that are more convenient than a station stop
> in the middle of the night on a through train.
>
> Outside of driving, or taking the train, the only
> other option is a bus service twice per week
> between Prince George and Prince Rupert.  From an
> intermediate stop in the Upper Skeena, such as
> Cedarvale, the rider would need to get a lift, or
> drive 12 miles over the dirt backroad to Kitwanga,
> and then take the bus to PG.  7 hours and 25
> minutes transit time. $93.40 CAD including tax. 
>
> The same trip on the train, directly from
> Cedarvale to PG takes 8 hours and 44 minutes, and
> costs $73.50 including tax.  Service every other
> day.
>
> This train, as all of VIA's long distance trains
> are, is propped up on government subsidies.  The
> voters in the north, are more likely to support a
> train service that caters service closer to their
> needs, than one that caters to tourists during a
> short period of the year.  I'm all for putting in
> a touring class, and an extra car for sightseeing
> during peak and shoulder tourist seasons, but what
> keeps the government doling out the money for this
> train's existence is not for those that would be
> taking advantage of that class.
>

The Skeena is grouped into "essential service" routes. So yes, I've considered and agree to that point, let alone the creative genuis to try and create a better way to garner more upcharge money during peak season for "Tourists." However, in looking back at schedules from mid-20th century onwards, a through train that didn't have the overnight 12 hours stop at Prince George could still work as part of essential service, as it did prior to 1997 before VIA's marketing department came up with something creative to bring in more money for the ops of the train.........Look at the other essential service schedules of VIA trains - Hudson Bay, northern Quebec trains........I would think the 12 hour layover for Canadian residents relying on this service would be more of an inconvenience than anything else. There's schedules that can be had to get passengers to the major stations along the route at passenger friendly hours - Prince George and Prince Rupert being absolutely KEY! Let alone, the last time I was in Jasper in Jan, the Skeena was a bus alternative more than it was a train during my visit, which I thought was odd, but then the Jasper station agent said "it was a growing problem." Not sure about more recently.............

My thanks to jp1822 for the history on this. There was a lot I wasn't aware of or had forgotten. I'm glad to have support for my idea of turning this back into an overnight train connecting to the Canadian, but I get the impression that innovation is now dead at VIA, much as it seems to be at Amtrak. And it seems to me that in Canada, the federal government is now allowing CN to directly call all the shots as far as VIA service is concerned, just short of cancelling trains altogether. You can be absolutely sure there will be no positive changes allowed with that going on.

I am going to piggyback this question on here since it is relevant in a roundabout way:

Has there been any serious interest in an out-and-back service from Prince Rupert catering almost exclusively to cruise ship passengers ? WP&Y and ARR trips seem to be draws;  would the cruise lines find something like this attractive enough to help bankroll, a la WP&Y ?  I note that:
-  Most cruise ships seem to spend about 10 hours in port in the summer months, and 8 the rest of the year;  so a RT within that, say 7 hrs, is required
-  Not a lot, as things go, would have to be done in the way of capital expenditure to get near-dockside ship to train transfer sans buses.
-  Regrettably, even going flat out non-stop would not permit getting to Smithers and back possible, so it would have to turn back much earlier;  a balloon track for reversal would be nice if one could find a suitable flat location on non-tribal land.
-  This would be in addition to the Skeena as we know it, but it could help it.

Disclaimers:
  The last time I posted anything about this line was 12 years ago when RDC's + a dome [ ! ]  were looked at.
  I have never been to mainland BC.

Best regards, SZ
 

I don't know who operated the service, but there was an "out and back" rail cruise option from Prince Rupert for those cruise ships that did a "port of call" at Prince Rupert. VIA did NOT operate it. Not sure if it was some sort of effort that Rocky Mountaineer was involved in or not. This was maybe in the mid 2000's. The open observation car that was based out of the RR Museum in Squamish (I believe) was borrowed/used for said service. The Skeena River was the highlighted backdrop for the train trip.......Not sure if they stopped at the Cannery outside of Prince Rupert to allow visitors to enjoy or not. It could have been the terminus as it would take a couple of hours to enjoy the Cannery Village/Museum there along the Skeena River. 

It has crossed my mind - how could Rocky Mountaineer "invade" the route from Jasper to Prince Rupert to replace their North Vancouver-Quesnel-Jasper route - if they wanted to!!! But Prince Rupert is NOT the destination that Jasper is - much more remote by far. Rocky would have to align with a cruise boat company to get people back to Vancouver, and that could be a VERY costly trip. There is air transport out of Prince Rupert, yet limited. The scenery on the Skeena route is stunning, but Prince George to North Vancouver on the ex-BC Rail is still superior in my opinion, overall.......Rocky Mountaineer I think will concentrate any expansion efforts through Canyon Spirit in the US before going after the Skeena routing...... 

Actually is not a bad idea for someone like rocky mountaineer to offer a service from Prince Rupert to Jasper on this route.  The only way it could work, and tour companies do this all the time would be a charter flight probably from Vancouver or Seattle TO Prince Rupert, carrying people to the train, hopefully a same-day departure and then carry people OFF the train back to Vancouver.  This would provide the rare luxury of having the plane with pax in each direction.

My impression and I was in Prince Rupert last month is CN would say 'no' prompty to any more trains on this route which they have jammed with long trains that do not fit in many places.

But restoring an overnight train from Jasper or better yet Edmonton would allow connections at least at one end which is really important.  I have idea how ordinary locals use the current service with its need for overnight hotel stays en route.

jp1822 Wrote:
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> I don't know who operated the service, but there
> was an "out and back" rail cruise option from
> Prince Rupert for those cruise ships that did a
> "port of call" at Prince Rupert. VIA did NOT
> operate it. Not sure if it was some sort of effort
> that Rocky Mountaineer was involved in or not.
> This was maybe in the mid 2000's. The open
> observation car that was based out of the RR
> Museum in Squamish (I believe) was borrowed/used
> for said service. T.

We have discussed this before, three months ago, so I won't repeat myself.. It was a Rocky operation.  Scroll down in this thread and you'll find my reply to you at that time. https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?15,6180312,6180911#msg-6180911



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/26 23:53 by railsmith.

railsmith Wrote:
>
> We have discussed this before, three months ago,
> so I won't repeat myself.. It was a Rocky
> operation.  Scroll down in this thread and you'll
> find my reply to you at that time.
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?15
> ,6180312,6180911#msg-6180911

Thank you for that reference.  I had not read that topic, or at least not beyond the first post or two, since I thought it concerned the PGE line; hence my question.

SZ

So after all this commentary, no one has answered the OP's question - where are these cars now?  Or have I overlooked the answer?

Topfuel Wrote:
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> So after all this commentary, no one has answered
> the OP's question - where are these cars now?  Or
> have I overlooked the answer?

Scroll to page 4 of the linked document, which is the Q&A session of VIA's Annual Public Meeting in 2024. https://corpo.viarail.ca/sites/default/files/media/pdf/APA-APM/2024_APM_Questions-and-Answers_EN.pdf

From the link provided above, which is pretty significant, at least ONE of the Panorama Cars have been fixed, yet VIA Rail doesn't seem to want to put it back on the Skeena for "Touring Class Service" as it had done while two cars worked the Canadian and one car worked the Skeena. If they COULD get at least one other Panorama Car fixed, they could dedicate two to be on the Ocean as a "lounge" car. OR how about this - operate the repaired Panorama Car and the Fraser Lounge Car - as "lounge cars" on the Ocean rather than having what exists now - NOTHING adequate in the lounge category! I'd then take the Ocean again! 

"At last year's annual public meeting, you said: "As for the Panorama cars, they are currently undergoing repair work and slated to return to service in summer 2024”.  Is that still your plan? On what route(s) will they be used? • VIA Rail’s Panorama fleet consists of three units, one of which has been repaired. • With the work on one car completed and the need for all departures on the Canadian to be identical, the repaired Panorama car is only available for ad hoc demands.  • Skylines and Parc cars are, however, still running and allow our customers to enjoy the Canadian landscape. • Due to the significant financial and resources investment required, we do not plan on renovating on the short or medium term the remaining Panorama cars in order to, amongst others, prioritize the update of other cars that are crucial to the operation of the long distance and regional routes."  

A photo on a railfan's recent review of a trip on the Ocean shows the three Panorama cars in the yard outside the Montreal Maintenance Centre.  Two of them are together and the third is on another track.

DrawingroomA Wrote:
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> A photo on a railfan's recent review of a trip on
> the Ocean shows the three Panorama cars in the
> yard outside the Montreal Maintenance Centre. 
> Two of them are together and the third is on
> another track.

Great - put that operational Panorama car on the Skeena for Touring Class, or run it on the Ocean Train during daylight hours in the Maritimes. Or put the Panorama Car and the Fraser Lounge Car on the Ocean for DESCENT lounge car service!!! Rather than let these cars attract dust in storage!!!