European Railroad Discussion > Y2K - 1

A scene which is now history. A really nice photo location in Kent is near Charing, about 50 miles SE of London, where the former LC&D Victoria to Ashford line is crossed by the London to Folkestone A20 main road. Back on 13th February 2000 the LC&D route was host to all trains between London and the Channel Ports as the usual mainline, via Tonbridge, was closed for MoW work. Both trains are history in this location.

A pair of Connex liveried 4VEPs on a Charing Cross to Folkestone, Dover & Ramsgate semi-fast are followed by a Eurostar bound for Paris or Brussels. Of course the Eurostars are very much still with us, but no longer equipped to run over the third rail network, the collector shoes having been removed once HS1 was complete. The VEPs disappeared for good back in 2005, the picture accentuates the VEPs archaic interior arrangements with a door to every seating bay, moreover a door with a droplight to lean out of, the Victorian era alive and well in the 21st century.

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Very interesting to see your Eurostar picture with it running with pantograph lowered!

Are you aware if the equipment to run with the electricity from the third rail was removed too or just the shoe? What do you think, where would the Eurostar Regional units run from the continental destination to U.K. if and when given permission to travel through the Channel tunnel (when an economical reason for that appears)? Madrid to Manchester for example? I think these secondary units must be in a need for internal refurbishing by now, so these could be adapted for any longer route at the same time as well, if the are in good enough condition technically. The Eurostar Regionals are missing the 15 kV overhead electricity system, so running towards Germany and Switzerland might be unlikely. SNCF has an abundance of German capable rolling stock, so I don't think there is need to run that way for that reason either. I did not write SNCF instead of Eurostar by mistake, the SNCF can alone as a majority shareholder rule how and where the Eurostar units run. And of course the Eurostar Regionals are for hire at SNCF itself (Paris to Lille mostly, it looks like) and need to be released first.

I remember watching an early third rail equipped Eurostar passing through Ashford in the 1990s. Lots of arcing.

There was a saying back then that the British built the station (Waterloo's new international terminal) while the French focused on the high speed track, leaving Gare du Nord virtually unchanged. Gare du Nord now is the weak link in the London-Paris chain, although there have been some improvements over the years.

I remember it being suggested that SNCF were going to rename the Gare du Nord the Gare du Hastings in retaliation for us using London Waterloo.

I think the NoL Eurostar sets would need a great deal of work done to enable them to run through the tunnel again, I am sure I read in TR that the Channel Tunnel signalling equipment had been removed. Personally I cannot see anything but seasonal trains being run beyond Paris, Brussels and maybe Amsterdam and possibly Frankfurt. Almost everywhere in Western Europe is about 2 to 3 hours flying time from everywhere else, add to that the time taken to get to and from the airport and check in and I guess high speed rail is time competitive with flying over an e2e journey time of 5 to 6 hours, especially if, for someone on business, that provides quality work time. Birmingham to Madrid would at best be 10 hours so I suggest is never likely to be competitive with air, except maybe for seasonal weekend travel.

That is a long time sitting in any train, but maybe overnight express would be a good business case?

If the tunnel safety equipment was removed above all other issues discussed above from Eurostar Regionals it sounds like they are pretty much confined to either coastal country.

86235 Wrote:
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> Birmingham to Madrid would at best be 10 hours so
> I suggest is never likely to be competitive with
> air, except maybe for seasonal weekend travel.

But again, how many people are you going to get to fill a daily London to Madrid service, and more importantly where is the business case to invest in 300 kph hotel train equipment. It is not as though many passengers will be picked up at, say, Lyon in the wee small hours. You would need a full train leaving London and arriving in Madrid. If you stop to swap cars out any advantage of using high speed rail rapidly disappears. Thirty years ago Thomas Cook's European Timetable was awash with overnight trains, here, there and everywhere. The network that survives today is a pale imitation, caused in part by the growth of air travel, low cost in particular, but also by the growth of High Speed Rail which makes setting out early in the morning much more practical.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/13 08:57 by 86235.

Hi all

Ref the 750DC running capability for Class 373's:
That's now pretty irreversible, as well as the shoegear we took a lot of other stuff from the inside the power car too so running on the shoes is now consigned to memory. It's a minor miracle (and a credit to its designers) that a train of such complexity and power ever managed to go 100mph'on the juice'but it was entertaining watching the spark shows in the winter!!! Although I'm glad I don't have to maintain that stuff anymore.

Nice pic by the way - running up CTR2 which was a diversionary route via Maidstone East - so quite a rare pic.

Here's a few more 373's from the 750DC era.

Pete UK

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Great additional photos! I have some which were never scanned, with the train passing through Ashford.

I agree with Nick that low cost air travel is too competitive for longer distance high speed routes out of London. One of the biggest problems is the pricing of travel through the tunnel. This seems to be based on firstly the repayment of the tunnel's construction, but also on the staffing required to cover any emergency in the tunnel. I am sure this is why business class managers get a snack/meal, simply to keep the crew busy!

If and when HS2 is up and running the better business case will be trains that bypass London without stopping on their way to Paris, Lille and Brussels. Listening to British accents at St. Pancras there are many travelers who come from the North and Midlands, and the case for business travel can be made as well - Birmingham Airport has a higher than average business to tourist ratio, according to its website. The original NoL sets were built for this, but without the tracks they were a non-starter.

I believe thirty years from now there will be changes few saw in advance too. But neither of us can tell these for sure. Innovation is the key for exploitation of new ideas and concepts. I believe high speed overnight services might well be among these. We'll see...

86235 Wrote:
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> Thirty years
> ago Thomas Cook's European Timetable was awash
> with overnight trains, here, there and everywhere.
> The network that survives today is a pale
> imitation, caused in part by the growth of air
> travel, low cost in particular, but also by the
> growth of High Speed Rail which makes setting out
> early in the morning much more practical.

86235 Wrote:
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> I remember it being suggested that SNCF were going
> to rename the Gare du Nord the Gare du Hastings
> in retaliation for us using London Waterloo.
>
Thanx! I needed a good laugh today.
...Lorenzo