European Railroad Discussion > Paris-Nice 2013 train!

Stage 1 of Paris Nice and got my first train of the season. I think this is a RER?

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Certainly a Paris suburban train. Not sure how easy it is to tell an RER line C or D train from one that started at Gare de Lyon (or maybe Gare D'Austerlitz) and did not go through the tunnels to the other side of Paris.

Here is one of the similarly stickered units, Z20600 at Paris Lion station. Picture by Focalplane.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/13 05:55 by McKey.

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I don't think it is an RER train. Too clean! More likely a Transilien suburban as John McKey has shown standing in Gare de Lyon.

Thanks guys! I thought the paint/stickers were big RER in circles like on the Wiki page but I'm glad to find out precisely.

I hoe the weather improves! Very high easterly winds and rain at the moment from Nice to Perpignan.

Rainy days are the exception but it is important to remember that some is necessary for the grapes to grow!

Focalplane Wrote:
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> I don't think it is an RER train. Too clean!
> More likely a Transilien suburban as John McKey
> has shown standing in Gare de Lyon.

What exactly is the difference between Transilien and RER? When I was in Paris back in May 2011 and took the train out to Villeneuve St Georges it was one of those double deck EMUs (multi voltage type I think) which I caught at La Defense on the RER.

Ownership?

Paris is formed of numerous little cities, some of which seem to have the Transilien running between them and Paris itself? La Defence seems to be a good place to spot Transiliens, except for the fact that is as dark as many older French station.

86235 Wrote:
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> What exactly is the difference between Transilien
> and RER? When I was in Paris back in May 2011 and
> took the train out to Villeneuve St Georges it was
> one of those double deck EMUs (multi voltage type
> I think) which I caught at La Defense on the RER.

I'm a bit confused. I must admit I always thought that SNCF ran commuter trains and RATP ran the Metro, buses and RER but I think it isn't that simple. RATP operate some RER, SNCF-Transilien other RER (I presume Transilien is the Ile de France version of Network Southeast).

And then there is STIF, which has appeared to the scene during the last decade or so in the sides of the trains. STIFF seems to be organizing part of the traffic and ordering services from operators.

But here is a Transilien older EMU they use for Louveciennes direction, West of Paris center almost along the river. These EMUs are very basic, use old technology and are underpowered and slow, no airconditioning, etc. They are probably the next in line to be replaced if the little communities along the 130 years old track can raise funds to improve system, it sounds to me the money is missing here too for the moment.

I took this picture under La Defence 10 years ago, the trains are still the same, wearing the same colors, with minor internal refurbishment. But a great improvement is that now there seems to be a lot less graffiti and tags, 10 years ago these units were all wearing a lot of those.

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86235 Wrote:
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> I'm a bit confused. I must admit I always thought
> that SNCF ran commuter trains and RATP ran the
> Metro, buses and RER but I think it isn't that
> simple. RATP operate some RER, SNCF-Transilien
> other RER (I presume Transilien is the Ile de
> France version of Network Southeast).


Keep up! RATP now operates London buses (complete with little logo incorporating a stylised map of the Seine), the same as Dutch Railways do. It all makes sense, doesn't it?

Oh yes, that I know very well, RATP bought London United Busways; that doesn't concern me. I understand our policy of letting all and sundry run our trains, buses, trams and what have you. It's what goes on in France that confuses me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/13 06:53 by 86235.

Since we don't seem to have anyone from France here it is hard to ask, but maybe with time from bits and pieces of the information on the organizations websites (in French) we can solve this issue? Maybe the French are doing just the same as (just about) everyone else in EU, only in much slower pace and while everything is "in progress" phase, the total transportation scheme looks a bit chaotic? But again, don't believe me, I'm just guessing.

No, there's definitely no competitive tendering going on, at least not yet. I've worked out that STIF is the agency which determines service levels in the Ile de France region whilst SNCF Transilien and RATP, both state funded, deliver the rail and metro services. Some RER is the former, some the latter.

I see that David Haydock, the editor of Today's Railways Europe is quite rude about the unholy alliance between SNCF and DB to water down the EU's latest directive on rail competition. He has some very harsh words about SNCF, mainly about their appalling record on railfreight.

It look to me like STIF acts very much like the parties that I'm used to in the Nordic:

- STIF is responsible for providing integrated and efficient transport services throughout the region to all Parisians.
i.e. organizes the traffic like SL in Stockholm or HSL in Helsinki area. (I don't remember the Copenhagen units name)
- STIF therefore implements the decisions made by these authorities during the Board of Directors’ meetings. These decisions can be of a structural nature (new infrastructures, etc.),
i.e. decisions on new lines, modernizations, rolling stock etc. The board of directors must have someone from each community around Paris area.
- concern innovation of the existing infrastructure (new services, etc.),
- concern quality issues (quality of service, improving supply, etc.),
very important factor where many times there are failures in the beginning of the competition on public transportation.
- economic and social issues (prices, travel cards, etc.).

STIF’s decisions are then implemented by the RATP, SNCF and OPTILE (private bus network) transport operators.
Ok, no competition here (I would like to add word yet here), but since this new structure of STIF has now formed it could be just a matter of time when there will be one or more outside bus companies, the way I've seen it starting elsewhere. Of course Optile is a formation of numerous private bus companies: http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html making it sound like it would be created in practice for one thing to limit the competition.

In return, STIF subsidises them to ensure a financially healthy network and to fund improvements. These subsidies are part of special objective agreements with the RATP and SNCF.
- so the money comes in from STIF, if the lines need subsidies. I suppose most urban lines do. The numerous cities in turn must pay STIF.

86235 Wrote:
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> No, there's definitely no competitive tendering
> going on, at least not yet. I've worked out that
> STIF is the agency which determines service levels
> in the Ile de France region whilst SNCF Transilien
> and RATP, both state funded, deliver the rail and
> metro services. Some RER is the former, some the
> latter.


True, David has been very critical about the protectionistic France. But there is always the silver lining around every cloud: isn't it so that only 40% of the Freight is any more handled in France by the SNCF? Quite a disachievement in just 10 years time starting point being near 100%! But I understand what happened since it is France.

Did you notice by the way that most of the moved freight has actually gone from SNCF to DB? And large chunks according to TR Europe are still flowing that way, and to other smaller operators. So the operators might not be in that good discussion relations any more?

> I see that David Haydock, the editor of Today's
> Railways Europe is quite rude about the unholy
> alliance between SNCF and DB to water down the
> EU's latest directive on rail competition. He has
> some very harsh words about SNCF, mainly about
> their appalling record on rail freight.

Yes, I was surprised to see an RTAP logo on the side of a bus in Bournemouth!

Focalplane Wrote:
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> Yes, I was surprised to see an RTAP logo on the
> side of a bus in Bournemouth!


Oh, we'll be seeing Birmingham Corporation crests in Nimes and Cap D'Agde soon

How convenient, maybe the city of Seinäjoki (Engl: river Seinä) in Finland can use RATP in the future, the name is quite right as is the river in the logo... ;)