European Railroad Discussion > Turin and thereabouts

Work sent me to Turin, Italy, for a couple weeks earlier this month. Unfortunately they expected me to work while there; however, I did get a couple days off. Train-related stuff from the trip:

1 & 2: At the Porta Nuova station in Turin, which was conveniently across the street from my hotel.
3: The station exterior.

More to follow...

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For my first of two days off, I took a ride to Modane, France, to see the Alps. The weather prevented actually seeing the Alps, though I'm sure they were around there somewhere.

4: My ride to Modane, a basic Trenitalia regional.
5: A couple freight motors laying over in Modane.
6: A TGV rolls by the Arc River in Modane, about to disappear into the Fréjus Rail Tunnel and enter Italy.

More to come...

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An unexpected second day off gave me the chance to take a ride to Genoa to see the Mediterranean.

7 & 8: A train departs Genova Brignole.
9: One of the few diesels (I think) I saw there was parked on one of the platform tracks.

More to follow...

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Finally, the trip home included a long enough layover in Amsterdam that I was able to leave the airport and look around there for a while.

10: An NS Sprinter departs Hoofddorp.
11: A couple of trains waiting in the impressive Amsterdam Central station.

That's it. Merry Christmas, y'all!

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Nomad Wrote:
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> 5: A couple freight motors laying over in
> Modane.

Thanks for braving the snow, they're both Bombardier built Traxx multi voltage locos in DB and ECR (Euro Cargo Rail) liveries.

Thanks for the photos. I lived in Italy for six years (Rome) and rode with Trenitalia many times. I was especially interested in your photos of Modane, because when I was in college (50 years ago), I had a pen pal who lived there. Our French teacher encouraged us to participate in a program to help us develop fluency in the language.

Question: why does that modern electric loco have the old style pantagraphs?

Posted from iPhone

Alexmarissa Wrote:
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> Question: why does that modern electric loco have
> the old style pantagraphs?

I don't know, perhaps its a spare parts thing. The only other reason I can conceive of is perhaps the want higher contact line pressure. Notice too that the Trenitalia E464 locomotive has both pantographs raised.

SOO6617 Wrote:
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> Alexmarissa Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Question: why does that modern electric loco
> have
> > the old style pantagraphs?
>
> I don't know, perhaps its a spare parts thing. The
> only other reason I can conceive of is perhaps the
> want higher contact line pressure. Notice too that
> the Trenitalia E464 locomotive has both
> pantographs raised.

I don't quite see how it could be spare parts, but it is certainly true that the Italians make widespread use of old-style double-sided pantographs, rather than the more modern type which only have one arm. We must remember that the Italian electrical system is generally 3000 V DC, and that therefore the current being passed is almost 10 times that in conventional high voltage AC application. This may well be why both pantographs are raised.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/17 15:30 by spflow.

spflow Wrote:
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>
> I don't quite see how it could be spare parts, but
> it is certainly true that the Italians make
> widespread use of old-style double-sided
> pantographs, rather than the more modern type
> which only have one arm. We must remember that the
> Italian electrical system is generally 3000 V DC,
> and that therefore the current being passed is
> almost 10 times that in conventional high voltage
> AC application. This may well be why both
> pantographs are raised.

I wasn't paying specific attention to when it was happening, but I did see pantograph(s) on the E464 going up and down while I was fanning. I may have just photographed it while they were in the middle of switching pantographs, versus it operating with both up.

Related question, why are there two? Does it make a difference which one is raised versus what direction the locomotive is going?

Nomad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spflow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > I don't quite see how it could be spare parts,
> but
> > it is certainly true that the Italians make
> > widespread use of old-style double-sided
> > pantographs, rather than the more modern type
> > which only have one arm. We must remember that
> the
> > Italian electrical system is generally 3000 V
> DC,
> > and that therefore the current being passed is
> > almost 10 times that in conventional high
> voltage
> > AC application. This may well be why both
> > pantographs are raised.

It is possible but note that each pantograph head has two or three contact strips, and the electrical power is not transferred down the arms of the
panto graph, but rather via a cable that you can see if you look closely.

> Related question, why are there two? Does it make
> a difference which one is raised versus what
> direction the locomotive is going?

No direction does not matter. Rather the second pantograph is a spare in case the head breaks off without, hopefully, bringing down the cantenary.

Certain Multi-system Electric Locomotives designed for use along the TEN-T Rhein-Alpine corridor are equipped to run under all four European
electrification systems 1.5kV and 3kV DC, and 15kV/16.7Hz and 25kV/50Hz AC. And the ability to run under as many as seven different ATC systems.
They have four different pantographs. One for each of the DC systems, plus one 15kV pantograph for Germany and one for Switzerland. If the Italian
pantograph is damaged, they have permission to use the Swiss AC pantograph under 3kV DC with a 50kph speed restriction for the shortest distance
necessary to reach a passing siding or yard for repairs or a locomotive change.

Thanks for the great pictures! Glad you got
some time off to go have fun. LOVE your photo
of the TGV in the snow and clouds. Beautiful!

And until I happened to read this interesting
thread, I did not know that thee are 7 different
electrical systems in Europe. They do a great
job of dealing with all that.

That is some very impressive overhead wirage and
supports in your photos of Genoa. And I LOVE
that huge train shed in Amsterdam -- wow.....

Glad you were able to go over there and get those
great photos! And, yeah, the weather did do a great
job of hiding the Alps from you and everyone. (Kinda
like going to see Mt. Rainier -- it is over there
somewhere, but not alwayhs visible.)

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:
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> And until I happened to read this interesting
> thread, I did not know that thee are 7 different
> electrical systems in Europe. They do a great
> job of dealing with all that.

Thankfully only 4 electrification systems
1.5kV DC --Netherlands, and southern France.
3kV DC --Much of Belgium, all of Italy except for HSR, part of the Czech Republic, part of Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Spain except for HSR, Portugal, Latvia, Estonia

15kV/16.7Hz AC -- Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Lichtenstein
25kV/50Hz AC -- Finland, Lithuania, Denmark, Northern France and all HSR, some of the Czech Republic, some of Slovakia, Hungary, HSR in Italy except Firenze(Florence) to Roma, HSR in Spain,
HSR and part of regular network in Belgium, Luxembourg.

The problem is seven PTC systems in that corridor, and a few more elsewhere.

And it doesn't stop there. I mentioned that Germany and Switzerland require different pantographs, the reason is the different stagger of the contact wire as it zigzags across the track.
It does this to spread out the wear across the width of the contact strip(s). The width in Germany is 1950mm while in Switzerland it is only 1450mm. Swiss tunnels have a narrow arch and so the first tunnel
would rip the pantograph head off a German pantograph. Not content to be varying that way, Italy requires a 1450mm width with a copper contact strip on their DC lines, while Belgium requires a 1950mm strip with a Graphite
contact strip on theirs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/17 21:03 by SOO6617.

Well actually a few more electrical systems. Berlin and Hamburg have different third rail systems and over in the UK there is an extensive network with a further, different, third rail system. However the Berlin and Hamburg systems are for their S Bahn systems and are self contained, so no need to equip a locomotive with either. 750 volt top contact in the UK is quite widespread across the South of England and there are plenty of trains which require it and 25kv AC on their single journey.