Home Open Account Help 231 users online

European Railroad Discussion > German 2-10-0 classification info needed


Date: 02/12/19 14:01
German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: gregscholl

I was in Germany three times in the 70's, and recently did a script or two for some films I am producing, and I think I got my info wrong.  I said the 052 were the Kriegsloks from the.  Saw someone else mention that was not true and that all the original 52's were gone by then and what was there in the 70's was 50 class, which were newer!  Is that correct?

So when were the 050 built, the 051, 052, and 053.  I have seen all of those.  What was the difference between the 4 types?
Thanks,
Greg Scholl



Date: 02/12/19 17:16
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Ray_Murphy

It so happens that I just received Eisenbahn-Kurier Special 132, "Baureihe 50"!

It says 3,000 were built between 1939 and 1944.

Ray

It's a very complicated story - you have a 100-page publication on a class with many sub classes, "export" variations, upgrades and rebuilds. It traces the frame migration during these upgrades/renumberings. It also appears that some Class 51 and 52 locomotives derive from the 50s (I haven't figured out those details yet).

One point to note is that the 50.40 subclass were the German Franco-Crosti boiler locomotives.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/19 17:56 by Ray_Murphy.



Date: 02/12/19 19:36
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Krokodil

To keep it simple, before the arrival of the numbering for the computer system in 1968, there was just BR50(BR=Baureihe, engine type or series) built from 1939 until 1943, a total of 3164 units. The BR52 was built from 1942 on. It was a simplified form of the BR50, omitting many non-essential features, such as simplified cab with only on side window, single sand dome and others. Also the fabrication used less sophisticated methods, such as a steel plate frame instead of a fabricated frame,so engines could be built all over the German occupied territories. Indeed production of this simplified continued in some countries after WW2 until 1951 and the BR52 were active in many Eastern European countries and Turkey. The BR52 also received enclosed cab and a tub like tender that saved material. A total 6285 engines were built this way. A key feature was the interchangeability of BR50 and 52 parts, such as boiler, cabs and many other. Indeed as the war progressed, many BR50 built contained simplified BR 52 parts, such as cabs and boilers. 

The BR52 in western Germany were all withdrawn from service by 1963 and never received computerized numbers. There is only one sub series, the 50 rebuilt with Franco-Crosti boilers, the BR50.40. However, there were many BR50 with BR52 parts, such as cab, boiler, even some with tub tender, hence the variety in appearance, although all BR50 series. Some tenders were also equipped with a dog house or the conductor (cabtenders).

The computerized numbering system in 1968 there was a restriction on the number of digits that could be used, and no letters could be used. The pre-1986 system identified the electric engines with an “E”, ad diesels with a “V”. In the 1968 computer system the steam engines were identified with a “0” at the beginning, electrics with a “1” and Diesel engines with a “2”. Thus the BR50 was now a “050”. The computer system allowed only three digits for individual engine number, however the BR50 had many engines with four digits engine number. To accommodate this the accountants used the following trick, if the engine number was four digits, the first digit would be shifted to the left and replace the zero in the class designation, so if the original engine number was lets say 50 1985, the number became now 051 985 and so on. 051, 052 and 053 are just the old BR50 with higher engine numbers, not separate class of decapods.

Thomas Eckhardt
Hurricane Utah



Date: 02/12/19 19:59
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: gregscholl

Krokodil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To keep it simple, before the arrival of the
> numbering for the computer system in 1968, there
> was just BR50(BR=Baureihe, engine type or series)
> built from 1939 until 1943, a total of 3164 units.
> The BR52 was built from 1942 on. It was a
> simplified form of the BR50, omitting many
> non-essential features, such as simplified cab
> with only on side window, single sand dome and
> others. Also the fabrication used less
> sophisticated methods, such as a steel plate frame
> instead of a fabricated frame,so engines could be
> built all over the German occupied territories.
> Indeed production of this simplified continued in
> some countries after WW2 until 1951 and the BR52
> were active in many Eastern European countries and
> Turkey. The BR52 also received enclosed cab and a
> tub like tender that saved material. A total 6285
> engines were built this way. A key feature was the
> interchangeability of BR50 and 52 parts, such as
> boiler, cabs and many other. Indeed as the war
> progressed, many BR50 built contained simplified
> BR 52 parts, such as cabs and boilers. 
>
> The BR52 in western Germany were all withdrawn
> from service by 1963 and never received
> computerized numbers. There is only one sub
> series, the 50 rebuilt with Franco-Crosti boilers,
> the BR50.40. However, there were many BR50 with
> BR52 parts, such as cab, boiler, even some with
> tub tender, hence the variety in appearance,
> although all BR50 series. Some tenders were also
> equipped with a dog house or the conductor
> (cabtenders).
>
> The computerized numbering system in 1968 there
> was a restriction on the number of digits that
> could be used, and no letters could be used. The
> pre-1986 system identified the electric engines
> with an “E”, ad diesels with a “V”. In the
> 1968 computer system the steam engines were
> identified with a “0” at the beginning,
> electrics with a “1” and Diesel engines with a
> “2”. Thus the BR50 was now a “050”. The
> computer system allowed only three digits for
> individual engine number, however the BR50 had
> many engines with four digits engine number. To
> accommodate this the accountants used the
> following trick, if the engine number was four
> digits, the first digit would be shifted to the
> left and replace the zero in the class
> designation, so if the original engine number was
> lets say 50 1985, the number became now 051 985
> and so on. 051, 052 and 053 are just the old BR50
> with higher engine numbers, not separate class of
> decapods.
>
> Thomas Eckhardt
> Hurricane Utah

So lets see if I got this right.
The 50 class were the original 2-10-0's built mainly between 39 and 1943.  In 1942 the simplified version was built as the class 52, and they were all gone by the time of the computerized numbers in the 60-70's when I was there.  So then what I saw was these engines built during the war, some being modified afterwards, and using parts from 52's that were retired.  Longer numbered engines in the 50 class show up as 51, 52, 53, but are all really 50's.

So then I assume the 52's being the cookie cutter locos were retired first cause the original 50's were better, correct?
Now were there any 2-10-0's built after the war?
Also were there any other engines built after the war(West Germany)?
Also are there any lists out there which give numbers of engines in service during the 70's for example, by year?  Thus could one find out roughly
how many 050 2-10-0's were available in service for say 1972, 1974, 1975?  Same for other classes.

Thanks for the info so far guys!  Interesting stuff.

Greg Scholl



Date: 02/13/19 07:31
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: gbmott

Krokodil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The BR52 was built from 1942 on. It was a
> simplified form of the BR50, omitting many
> non-essential features, such as simplified cab
> with only on side window, single sand dome and
> others. 

Is it a true statement to say that most (all?) the "Kriegsloks" that wound up all over Europe during and after WWII, many actually constructed outside Germany, were BR52's?  For example the PKP Ty-2's.

Gordon



Date: 02/13/19 10:36
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: gregscholl

gbmott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Krokodil Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The BR52 was built from 1942 on. It was a
> > simplified form of the BR50, omitting many
> > non-essential features, such as simplified cab
> > with only on side window, single sand dome and
> > others. 
>
> Is it a true statement to say that most (all?) the
> "Kriegsloks" that wound up all over Europe during
> and after WWII, many actually constructed outside
> Germany, were BR52's?  For example the PKP
> Ty-2's.
>
> Gordon

My next question was in that regard as well.  We shot some 52's in Austria on the Linz-Summerau line
and I always thought they were the original type of Kreigsloks, which I now know to be the 52's.  So when were these
built and roughly how many were used in Austria.  Train is near Summerau in August of 1974.
Greg Scholl
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/19 10:37 by gregscholl.




Date: 02/13/19 11:12
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Krokodil

Greg, to answer your questions:

Yes BR52 were retired earlier than the BR50 in West Germany (DB), because they there not designed for longevity. Different in East Germany (DR) where only relaively  BR50 were available quite a few BR52 were rebuilt with new boilers and lasted until the end of steam in East Germany. After reunification some were sold railfans in the western part and are still running on steam excursions and museum operations.

Some BR52 were built after the war, as there were enough parts left over to assemble entire engines (Florisdor in Austria comes to mind). I don't believe any BR50 were built after the war, so don't quote.

West Germany had an extensive building program for steam engines after the war, including new types, but only a small number of typesmade it into a larger production series, foremost the BR23 (2-6-2), BR 65 (2-8-4T) and BR82 (0-10-0T).

There might some publication referring to steam engines stationed in West germany, in the early seventies. There was a publication by the Eisenbahnkurier titled: "Die Lokomotiven der DB  und der DR am 1.7.1971" that presumably list all locomotives, including serviceable steam engines. The German wikipedia indicates that over 1400 BR50 were assigned computerized numbers in 1968. Does not mean that all of the were used regularly, and the number declined rapidly (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_50).

Hope this helps!

Thomas Eckhardt
Hurricane UT



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/19 14:36 by Krokodil.



Date: 02/13/19 11:16
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Krokodil

There was another class of wartime engines, the heavy decapo class42 (2-10-0), patterend after the BR44, but simplyfied and only two, not three cylinder. More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Class_42

Thomas Eckhardt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/19 11:18 by Krokodil.



Date: 02/13/19 11:25
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Krokodil

Nice shot Greg, yes it is a bonified BR52, but was it built during or after the war? I believe Austria had both war and post war engines and Florisdorf in Austia wa building BR52 during and after the war, so its difficult to tell! BTW, the Graz-Koeflach-Bahn also has some BR52 until the early seventies.

Thomas Eckhardt
 




Date: 02/14/19 07:47
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: lynnpowell

< < < West Germany had an extensive building program for steam engines after the war, including new types, but only a small number of typesmade it into a larger production series, foremost the BR23 (2-6-0), BR 65 (2-8-8T) and BR83 (0-10-0T). > > >

I am confused.  I was curious and wanted to see photos of the BR23, BR65, and BR83 classes.  I found all three on the internet, but the BR23 was a 2-6-2, the BR65 was a 2-8-4T, and the BR83 was a 2-8-4T.  Was the info given a typo or a mistake, or is there some other reason for the discrepancy?  Are the locomotive classes used different between West and East Germany?  I'm loving all of this information and the photos!



Date: 02/14/19 14:34
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: gregscholl

lynnpowell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> < < < West Germany had an extensive building
> program for steam engines after the war, including
> new types, but only a small number of typesmade it
> into a larger production series, foremost the BR23
> (2-6-0), BR 65 (2-8-8T) and BR83 (0-10-0T). > > >
>
> I am confused.  I was curious and wanted to see
> photos of the BR23, BR65, and BR83 classes.  I
> found all three on the internet, but the BR23 was
> a 2-6-2, the BR65 was a 2-8-4T, and the BR83 was a
> 2-8-4T.  Was the info given a typo or a mistake,
> or is there some other reason for the
> discrepancy?  Are the locomotive classes used
> different between West and East Germany?  I'm
> loving all of this information and the photos!

I am pretty sure the 23 class are the 2-6-2's, and I believe
they were about the last engines built in West Germany with some of
them being built as late as 1958 I believe.  They were pretty modern.
I had some photos of them from 1974 and 1975, and in my research found
the last 023's ran in 1975 a few months after I was there.
Greg
 



Date: 02/14/19 14:35
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Krokodil

Senior moment from my part, now corrected. Here is a BR23 2-6-2 to make up for it, still used to use the European wheel arragmnet system. These engines were actually designed with te same maxiumum speed in both direction. Some were even used in push-pull commuter service (smoke box coupled agaist the train). Sometimes crews wrote seasonal greetings for christmas and easter (like on tis picture) on the smoke deflectors!

Thomas Eckhardt
Hurricane UT




Date: 02/14/19 14:52
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Krokodil

Both the DB and DR used the BR designation based on the same wheel arrangement, but the numbering for subclass was completely different. Both the DB and DR BR23 had the same wheelarangement, both were steam engines developed independently after the war. Incidentally there was also a war time BR23, two engines were built again with the 2-6-2 wheeel arrangementbuilt in 1941, but further building was stopped because of the war, although the design proofed to be successful. Both engines remained with the post-war DR. To distinguish them from the old BR23 (and probably also from the DB BR23), the newly designed engies were classified as BR23.10 by the DR. Another post-war  parallel development was the BR65 (2-8-4T), again the DR classified them as 65.10. The post-war DR did not develop a BR10, BR66 or BR82 equivalent, but did develop a BR83.10 (2-8-4T) with smaller (1250mm versus 1500mm) wheels that the BR65 with the same wheel arrangement.

Thomas Eckhardt
Hurricane UT



Date: 02/14/19 20:05
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: gregscholl

Frohe Ostern...cool pic.  I have a color slide of an 012 in Rheine on Easter 1975.  There were maybe 70 engines there at the shed area that day!  I scanned that shot a long time ago and am not sure where it is.  I used to post it on Easter on a NG discussion board, and perhaps here as well.  Maybe its in the archives someplace.

"Last Run" or "Last Trip:, which I think is Lehtz Farhte ??? was chalked on some engines I saw, specifically at Hof in 72 and a couple other dead engines later.

Greg



Date: 02/15/19 17:37
Re: German 2-10-0 classification info needed
Author: Steinzeit2

gbmott Wrote:

> Is it a true statement to say that most (all?) the
> "Kriegsloks" that wound up all over Europe during
> and after WWII, many actually constructed outside
> Germany, were BR52's?  For example the PKP
> Ty-2's.

1.  Most, yes,  all, no -- as the Br 42, as explained above.   There actually was a broad palette of KDL's, Kriegs-Dampflokomotiven:  the 52 was KDL 1, the 42 KDL 3, an 0-10-0T KDL5, an 0-4-0T KDL8, and narrow gauge and fireless steamers [ KFL ] as well.  There were also diesel/gasoline types [ KML ], and Kriegs-Electrolokomotiven, ranging from material-economy versions of the E94 and E44 workhorses down to small two axle battery types for underground mines.

2.  The Ty2's were, as you mentioned, the former DRB 52's, renumbered in 1947 from Ty2 1 through 1169;  but 150 locomotives built to the same design in 1945/46 by Polish works were the Ty42's.

3.  An excellent overview in English is the publication [ magazine size ] German Austerity 2-10-0's, No 18 in the Locomotive Profile series edited by Brian Reed.   A more exhaustive look is contained in the later The German Class 52 "Kriegslok" published by Stenvalls in both English and German editions.  It really gets into the number crunching if you are looking for the disposition of every individual 52, a cross index of 52 to Ty2 renumbering, Soviet rebuilds, etc.
    Finally, there is also Gottwaldt's Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939-1945 which gives a broader view of other types, and touches upon other aspects of wartime railway production.

Best regards,

SZ



[ Share Thread on Facebook ] [ Search ] [ Start a New Thread ] [ Back to Thread List ] [ <Newer ] [ Older> ] 
Page created in 0.1115 seconds