European Railroad Discussion > Sneak Preview of DB's Future Talgo Trains

I believe many of us were a little surprised last month when DB selected Talgo as the builder
for its future intercity fleet.  Initially there will be 23 seventeen car trains assembled with delivery
in 2023. It's interesting to note that Talgo will also be supplying--not Siemens or Bombardier--the
electric locomotives to power these trains.  The below link from today's railcolornews takes a well
illustrated look:
https://railcolornews.com/2019/03/13/de-deutsche-bahn-presents-the-ecx-by-talgo-in-berlin/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/19 20:26 by milepost20.

---

milepost20 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe many of us were a little surprised when
> DB selected Talgo as the builder for its future 
> intercity fleet....

Yep, I never would have called that one. Does it have anything to do with EU internal trade balances (i.e. politics)? 

I have always enjoyed my trips on ICE train sets. Especially if the first class car is up front and the driver doesn't frost over the front widow. The view out the front is amazing. Other than the first generation loco powered sets, they don't seem to be all that old and are well kept. By contrast, the Talgos appear to be much smaller and lighter. I remember seeing video of the crash in Spain. The entire train appeared to lift right off the rails. If it's an economic decision,  I have never understood the concept of having a country tell another what they can and can't buy.  No wonder the U.K. wanted out.. 

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If it's an economic decision,  I have
> never understood the concept of having a country
> tell another what they can and can't buy.

They don't and can't. The only requirement is that if public funds are being spent on something, in this case trains, the tendering process must be open to all suppliers in EU nations.

As for Britain leaving the EU, that will  disqualify British suppliers from bidding on publicly-funded projects in EU countries. A company like Hitachi, which built a plant in Britain to gain a foothold in the EU market, will be out of luck, and must be sorely regretting that investment, beyond the sales it has already made in Britain, where the market for trains is approaching saturation.

railsmith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> andersonb109 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If it's an economic decision,  I have
> > never understood the concept of having a
> country
> > tell another what they can and can't buy.
>
> They don't and can't. The only requirement is that
> if public funds are being spent on something, in
> this case trains, the tendering process must be
> open to all suppliers in EU nations.
>
> As for Britain leaving the EU, that will 
> disqualify British suppliers from bidding on
> publicly-funded projects in EU countries. A
> company like Hitachi, which built a plant in
> Britain to gain a foothold in the EU market, will
> be out of luck, and must be sorely regretting that
> investment, beyond the sales it has already made
> in Britain, where the market for trains is
> approaching saturation.

Hitachi has bought the Ansaldo-Breda facility in Italy, and is currently rebuilding the failed V250 trainsets originally built for Benelux services and now being planned for use by Trenitalia.

This comment is so ignorant that I hesitate to even respond to it.

As already pointed out above, there was a competitive bidding process open to companies in all EU countries. And as it so happens, Talgo was the only bidder. Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi et al. did not submit bids, supposedly due to the stringent demands of the contract.

These trains are being procured to eventually replace the 50-year-old loco-hauled EuroCity sets, which comprise some 25+ various designs, are at the end of their useful life, no longer meet customer demands, and are limited to 200 km/h. The new trains will be modern, comfortable, maintained by Talgo (which has an excellent maintenance record), capable of being hauled by diesel or multi-system electric locomotive (i.e. for use on the routes to Sylt and Oberstdorf as well as into other countries where a loco swap is required), and capable of 230 km/h operation, speeding up schedules across the network.

In other words, they have nothing to do with the existing ICE fleet.

But of course you have to bring Brexit into it. Maybe next time you should refrain from commenting on things of which you have absolutely no knowledge?

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have always enjoyed my trips on ICE train sets.
> Especially if the first class car is up front and
> the driver doesn't frost over the front widow. The
> view out the front is amazing. Other than the
> first generation loco powered sets, they don't
> seem to be all that old and are well kept. By
> contrast, the Talgos appear to be much smaller and
> lighter. I remember seeing video of the crash in
> Spain. The entire train appeared to lift right off
> the rails. If it's an economic decision,  I have
> never understood the concept of having a country
> tell another what they can and can't buy.  No
> wonder the U.K. wanted out.. 

I'll add that the requirement for a competitive bidding process is to ensure that countries do not give out no-bid contracts at inflated prices to domestic monopolies, thereby preventing that public funds are wasted.

Also, there have been massive problems with the quality of trains delivered by the "domestic" manufacturers Siemens and Bombardier. Competition from Talgo provides alternatives and an incentive for the domestic builders to improve their products. Conservatives are supposed to like competition -- but that puts andersonb109 in an uncomfortable position: support true conservative ideals or toe the populist line of EU-bashing?

as for the UK leaving the EU, all bets are off, it looks like the proposed date of March 29th will be deferred. As one comedian remarked, perhaps they should hold a refurendum every 4 years, like the Olympic Games....

pennengineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This comment is so ignorant that I hesitate to
> even respond to it.
>
> As already pointed out above, there was a
> competitive bidding process open to companies in
> all EU countries. And as it so happens, Talgo was
> the only bidder. Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, CAF,
> Hitachi et al. did not submit bids, supposedly due
> to the stringent demands of the contract.
>
> These trains are being procured to eventually
> replace the 50-year-old loco-hauled EuroCity sets,
> which comprise some 25+ various designs, are at
> the end of their useful life, no longer meet
> customer demands, and are limited to 200 km/h. The
> new trains will be modern, comfortable, maintained
> by Talgo (which has an excellent maintenance
> record), capable of being hauled by diesel or
> multi-system electric locomotive (i.e. for use on
> the routes to Sylt and Oberstdorf as well as into
> other countries where a loco swap is required),
> and capable of 230 km/h operation, speeding up
> schedules across the network.
>
> In other words, they have nothing to do with the
> existing ICE fleet.
>
> But of course you have to bring Brexit into it.
> Maybe next time you should refrain from commenting
> on things of which you have absolutely no
> knowledge?
>
> andersonb109 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have always enjoyed my trips on ICE train
> sets.
> > Especially if the first class car is up front
> and
> > the driver doesn't frost over the front widow.
> The
> > view out the front is amazing. Other than the
> > first generation loco powered sets, they don't
> > seem to be all that old and are well kept. By
> > contrast, the Talgos appear to be much smaller
> and
> > lighter. I remember seeing video of the crash
> in
> > Spain. The entire train appeared to lift right
> off
> > the rails. If it's an economic decision,  I
> have
> > never understood the concept of having a
> country
> > tell another what they can and can't buy.  No
> > wonder the U.K. wanted out.. 

Why must so many people on this site get so nasty and worked up over little crap....so you don't like andersonb109 post....
so just say you don't agree and state why respectfully.
Why are so many railfans dicks !!?
Chris.....yeah

engine3420 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pennengineer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This comment is so ignorant that I hesitate to
> > even respond to it.
> >
> > As already pointed out above, there was a
> > competitive bidding process open to companies
> in
> > all EU countries. And as it so happens, Talgo
> was
> > the only bidder. Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier,
> CAF,
> > Hitachi et al. did not submit bids, supposedly
> due
> > to the stringent demands of the contract.
> >
> > These trains are being procured to eventually
> > replace the 50-year-old loco-hauled EuroCity
> sets,
> > which comprise some 25+ various designs, are at
> > the end of their useful life, no longer meet
> > customer demands, and are limited to 200 km/h.
> The
> > new trains will be modern, comfortable,
> maintained
> > by Talgo (which has an excellent maintenance
> > record), capable of being hauled by diesel or
> > multi-system electric locomotive (i.e. for use
> on
> > the routes to Sylt and Oberstdorf as well as
> into
> > other countries where a loco swap is required),
> > and capable of 230 km/h operation, speeding up
> > schedules across the network.
> >
> > In other words, they have nothing to do with
> the
> > existing ICE fleet.
> >
> > But of course you have to bring Brexit into it.
> > Maybe next time you should refrain from
> commenting
> > on things of which you have absolutely no
> > knowledge?
> >
> > andersonb109 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I have always enjoyed my trips on ICE train
> > sets.
> > > Especially if the first class car is up front
> > and
> > > the driver doesn't frost over the front
> widow.
> > The
> > > view out the front is amazing. Other than the
> > > first generation loco powered sets, they
> don't
> > > seem to be all that old and are well kept. By
> > > contrast, the Talgos appear to be much
> smaller
> > and
> > > lighter. I remember seeing video of the crash
> > in
> > > Spain. The entire train appeared to lift
> right
> > off
> > > the rails. If it's an economic decision,  I
> > have
> > > never understood the concept of having a
> > country
> > > tell another what they can and can't buy. 
> No
> > > wonder the U.K. wanted out.. 
>
> Why must so many people on this site get so nasty
> and worked up over little crap....so you don't
> like andersonb109 post....
> so just say you don't agree and state why
> respectfully.
> Why are so many railfans dicks !!?
> Chris.....yeah

Because of posts like this...

pennengineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, there have been massive problems with the
> quality of trains delivered by the "domestic"
> manufacturers Siemens and Bombardier. Competition
> from Talgo provides alternatives and an incentive
> for the domestic builders to improve their
> products....

I am curious about the Siemens problems, especially since the USA and Canada are relying on that company so much today.

 

engine3420 Wrote:

> Why must so many people on this site get so nasty and worked up over little crap....so you don't like andersonb109 post....
> so just say you don't agree and state why respectfully. Why are so many railfans dicks !!?

> Chris.....yeah

My father, who had is blood spilled in World War 2 in Europe, said "Perhaps if people kicked the Nazi's a** in the early 30's then we wouldn't have had to fight that war"

Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/19 17:07 by choodude.