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Railroaders' Nostalgia > Drawbar Pull


Date: 11/30/16 16:25
Drawbar Pull
Author: HardYellow

Will some of you western railroad guys go over to my post on Eastern Railroads 11/30 "CSX Drawbar Pull ??" and try to explain to the fellow responding, what I'm talking about. I can't seem to make drawbar pull  clear to him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/16 16:26 by HardYellow.



Date: 12/01/16 06:20
Re: Drawbar Pull
Author: HardYellow

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will some of you western railroad guys go over to
> my post on Eastern Railroads 11/30 "CSX Drawbar
> Pull ??" and try to explain to the fellow
> responding, what I'm talking about. I can't seem
> to make drawbar pull  clear to him.

Thanks for the help guys. I guess CSX pays no attention to drawbar pull.



Date: 12/01/16 08:15
Re: Drawbar Pull
Author: TAW

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HardYellow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Will some of you western railroad guys go over
> to
> > my post on Eastern Railroads 11/30 "CSX Drawbar
> > Pull ??" and try to explain to the fellow
> > responding, what I'm talking about. I can't
> seem
> > to make drawbar pull  clear to him.
>
> Thanks for the help guys. I guess CSX pays no
> attention to drawbar pull.


My favorite part was mechanical department stating that, effectively, knuckles have infinite tensile strength.

TAW



Date: 12/01/16 11:15
Re: Drawbar Pull
Author: HardYellow

TAW Wrote:

> My favorite part was mechanical department stating
> that, effectively, knuckles have infinite tensile
> strength.
>
> TAW

Yea...I saw that. Too funny! I should have told the CSX man, the knuckles don't care if it a steam engine or street car is pulling on them, stress is stress, physics is physics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/16 12:52 by HardYellow.



Date: 12/01/16 15:59
Re: Drawbar Pull
Author: dcfbalcoS1

It was getting quite humorous there. Not understanding is why some people continue breaking things or wrecking things. I've heard one guy who has quite a history of difficulties say, " It don't make any difference " .



Date: 12/01/16 16:48
Re: Drawbar Pull
Author: TAW

dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was getting quite humorous there. Not
> understanding is why some people continue breaking
> things or wrecking things. I've heard one guy who
> has quite a history of difficulties say, " It
> don't make any difference " .

...like the guy in the second and third paragraph here:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/posting.php?18,reply,4171480,quote=1 Date: 12/05/06 22:53 Re: Railroad Radio Humor...5 years later Author: TAW

TAW



Date: 12/01/16 16:55
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: HardYellow

dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was getting quite humorous there. Not
> understanding is why some people continue breaking
> things or wrecking things. I've heard one guy who
> has quite a history of difficulties say, " It
> don't make any difference " .

Right! I like the fellow that said , Never seen anyone get a drawbar going uphill or downhill. He must have ran trains in Kansas.



Date: 12/01/16 18:51
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: TAW

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It was getting quite humorous there. Not
> > understanding is why some people continue
> breaking
> > things or wrecking things. I've heard one guy
> who
> > has quite a history of difficulties say, " It
> > don't make any difference " .
>
> Right! I like the fellow that said , Never seen
> anyone get a drawbar going uphill or downhill. He
> must have ran trains in Kansas.

I had the misfortune of being 2d trick Chief in Seattle when 82 got a lung out of the 3rd unit just below Scenic WA, derailing the 4th unit and the three head cars in a place where you can go up hundreds of feet and not find a flat spot and down hundreds of feet and not find a flat spot.

TAW



Date: 12/01/16 19:14
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: Txhighballer

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HardYellow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > It was getting quite humorous there. Not
> > > understanding is why some people continue
> > breaking
> > > things or wrecking things. I've heard one guy
> > who
> > > has quite a history of difficulties say, " It
> > > don't make any difference " .
> >
> > Right! I like the fellow that said , Never seen
> > anyone get a drawbar going uphill or downhill.
> He
> > must have ran trains in Kansas.
>
> I had the misfortune of being 2d trick Chief in
> Seattle when 82 got a lung out of the 3rd unit
> just below Scenic WA, derailing the 4th unit and
> the three head cars in a place where you can go up
> hundreds of feet and not find a flat spot and down
> hundreds of feet and not find a flat spot.
>
> TAW

How in hell do you do that?



Date: 12/01/16 19:24
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: TAW

Txhighballer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HardYellow Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > It was getting quite humorous there. Not
> > > > understanding is why some people continue
> > > breaking
> > > > things or wrecking things. I've heard one
> guy
> > > who
> > > > has quite a history of difficulties say, "
> It
> > > > don't make any difference " .
> > >
> > > Right! I like the fellow that said , Never
> seen
> > > anyone get a drawbar going uphill or
> downhill.
> > He
> > > must have ran trains in Kansas.
> >
> > I had the misfortune of being 2d trick Chief in
> > Seattle when 82 got a lung out of the 3rd unit
> > just below Scenic WA, derailing the 4th unit
> and
> > the three head cars in a place where you can go
> up
> > hundreds of feet and not find a flat spot and
> down
> > hundreds of feet and not find a flat spot.
> >
> > TAW
>
> How in hell do you do that?

Good question. He was known for drawbars and knuckles but this one was above and beyond.

TAW



Date: 12/02/16 10:21
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: MW810

No, not even close.

We get them in the middle of the sub due to 14,000ft trains being at three different elevations simultaneously with no power to control the slack.

We are required to run trains up to 500 TPA - while the adjoining subs get to run them at 400 or less with almost flat/river grade runs.

We have been threatened with dismissal if we turn on power.

Last train I had - dynamics were at 580.

However, I did state - 12,000T+ three unit conventional trains are not uncommon and stay in one price.

Unlike the Mohave sub which has limits around 224, that's a gift.

If I ever get one like that - that isn't a Z or K, I'd be in heaven.

But no, we get 20,000t 15,000ft trains full of lumber cars and ARMN's with limited power and is a giant slinky for a couple of hundred miles.



HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It was getting quite humorous there. Not
> > understanding is why some people continue
> breaking
> > things or wrecking things. I've heard one guy
> who
> > has quite a history of difficulties say, " It
> > don't make any difference " .
>
> Right! I like the fellow that said , Never seen
> anyone get a drawbar going uphill or downhill. He
> must have ran trains in Kansas.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 12/03/16 09:19
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: HardYellow

MW810 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Unlike the Mohave sub which has limits around 224,
> that's a gift.
>
> If I ever get one like that - that isn't a Z or K,
> I'd be in heaven.
>
> But no, we get 20,000t 15,000ft trains full of
> lumber cars and ARMN's with limited power and is a
> giant slinky for a couple of hundred miles.

A gift? We're talking about a 2.3% grade from Tehachapi  down to Ilmond and 2.5% for 30 miles,  from Hiland (Cajon Summit) down to Slover (West Colton).
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/16 11:27 by HardYellow.



Date: 12/03/16 14:43
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: MW810

Not trying to whip out who has the largest reverser, but I know your sub and it's profile.

It's consistent, steep but consistent (for the most part).

Imagine that profile with a bunch of:

---/~~\~/----/\/\____ type of terrain.

In one spot we go down about a 1% up .89, down .9 and back up 1% in a distance of 4 miles with 12-15,000ft trains in a 2x1 configuration. 0.8hpt is the usual power they give us.

Repeat that several times. For good measure put a couple of dips and humps while on downhill grades.

On top of that, we are prohibited to use DB on DP's and must maintain min of N1 on all DP consists.

Hence why we are usually #1 for break in twos and the solution is to just make the trains longer.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 12/03/16 15:00
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: Txhighballer

MW810 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not trying to whip out who has the largest
> reverser, but I know your sub and it's profile.
>
> It's consistent, steep but consistent (for the
> most part).
>
> Imagine that profile with a bunch of:
>
> ---/~~\~/----/\/\____ type of terrain.
>
> In one spot we go down about a 1% up .89, down .9
> and back up 1% in a distance of 4 miles with
> 12-15,000ft trains in a 2x1 configuration. 0.8hpt
> is the usual power they give us.
>
> Repeat that several times. For good measure put a
> couple of dips and humps while on downhill
> grades.
>
> On top of that, we are prohibited to use DB on
> DP's and must maintain min of N1 on all DP
> consists.
>
> Hence why we are usually #1 for break in twos and
> the solution is to just make the trains longer.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Yuck...how do they feel about stretch braking on hogbacks like that? That's the way I learned how to run that kind of territory.



Date: 12/04/16 18:07
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: MW810

The requirement for cleaning up the air has gone away - still do it usually.

Normally get your speed up down the hill, set air, kick it off far enough to get back up to speed and carry you over and then try to strech out as best as you can.

The trick is just fencing the DP's and put them in power and notch them up a few ahead of the headend. Today's train was tonnage restricted to 35 - caught up to a slower train. Air set for about 25 mile, pushing 3 on the back and B3 on the headend. Notch up on the rear in the dips and watch the headend and adjust the head as needed on the down portions.

Someone previously mentioned Kansas. I've driven the backroads of KS along the UP, and its anything but flat, at least on the west end.

A friend of mine who works in Texas has stated they have similar restrictions for DP's, as too many people ripped trains in half with the hogbacks - however the DP's are along for the ride and are in idle as really expensive EOT's on the end of coal trains.
 



Date: 12/04/16 19:57
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: Railbaron

MW810 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On top of that, we are prohibited to use DB on DP's and must maintain min of N1 on all DP consists.
>
> Hence why we are usually #1 for break in twos and the solution is to just make the trains longer.
>
> Posted from iPhone

​I'm staying out of all this undulating terrain discussion but your comment about staying in power on the DP units rang a familiar bell.

When I was running I virtually NEVER​ put the DP units in dynamic - even going downhill normally. Our southward trains usually had 2 on the rear and either 3 or 4 on the head-end. And when in power I always had the DP units in Run 2 or higher, often in Run 8 with the head-end in dynamic - it made for a real nice ride, quiet and smooth, and I could still maintain 50 mph usually. When I started running I was taught "slack is your enemy - control it and you won't break in two". So I always ran bunched or stretched, hated that crap with the node of "free slack" in the middle of the train caused by both head-end and DP's in synchronous. Oh, before somebody jumps my ass on this, while they may have changed the rules since I retired there was no restriction on the throttle/dynamic difference unless you were in a heat restriction or on disturbed track.



Date: 12/05/16 10:52
Re: Draw bar Pull
Author: MW810

Thats normally how I run where I can.

Several of our hills are jussssssssst long enough that you will be at 50 but need to set air after coming off crests, whereas those are straight down hills and we use to be able to use all DB to hold the train without air - reguardless of train makeup. Worked really well. Now that you are pushing (not allowed to idle them) you have enough wait plus effort that its nor longer possible.

Most of our "undulations" over the road (aside from the three mountains) are -.9 to +.9 in a span of a few miles. Its a nice roller coaster.

Can be fun, but mostly annoying :)



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