Railroaders' Nostalgia > I always wondered ?

About hand signals.
The ground man always needed to know which direction
the locomotive was facing.

To me,it would to simple to give a "come to me signal"
or go away as "by-by" regardless of locomotive direction.
Does that make sense?

Uncle Joe
Seffner,Fl.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/18 09:45 by retcsxcfm.

This is geosensitive. There are LOTS of signal, many very location specific. It was a complete language, and it was possible to work with a crew all day and never say a word verbally. Different signals were given when using handsigns than when signaling with a lantern.

Specific to your exact question, however: Painting this picture with a wide brush, let it be said that day signals used either - generally, Chicago and eastward used "go forward" (hand raised up and down) and "go backward" (hand moved in a circle), regardless of which way the engine was facing. West of that, "come to me" (circle with overhand motion) and "go away from me" (circle with underhand motion) were used.

Night signals for this were the same in East and West, and were the same as Eastern Day signals.

-LD

And you can get even more specific. On the Pensacola Division of the L&N where I use to run, and I think on the rest of the system, go ahead and back up was based on which direction the engine was facing. The front had the "F" near the front step, thus going ahead was forward even with cars coupled to the front of the engine. Would like to hear from other L&N Engineers if they did the same on the north end.
I was a trainman in the Army at Ft. Lewis and worked with the go away and come to me signals and had to change to the circle for back, up and up down to go ahead.

Steve Panzik
Chiloquin, Or



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/18 12:12 by ln844south.

On the SP it was "Come To Me" or "Go Away From Me" during the day. At night they would use the eastern signs.


Nudge

LarryDoyle is correct; it was very geosensitive, meaning it varied from Eastern US and Western US and from road to road and sometimes division to division or crew to crew.

I worked the first 16 years with only hand signals and was one of the group of stubborn SOB's that were reluctant to go to radio as long as we had crew enough to pass signals. Going to a 2 man crew you really needed the radio. And more than once in a critical move I've known a radio to konk out, especially the early ones.

If you were at the caboose and wanted to highball your engineer you could throw a fusee up at night. It would make a high up and down motion so the head end would know to highball. Just be careful in dry weather and where you were so as not to start a conflagration !

Combinations of hand and whistle signals would tell a field man what track to expect a cut, how many to pull or what track to line.

In going around the country or looking at videos in the old days it is interesting to see the differences in signals and there are times you know where a guy is from by his signals, kind of like an accent maybe. It was always imperative when working with a new guy to make sure everyone was speaking the same signal language. After working with a crew or a division a while it was pretty easy and very comfortable. I'd always get anxious when we got radio of getting a command and not really knowing where a guy was at. Especially with a three man crew if I got a radio command and could not see the 3rd guy and wondered if the the guy on the radio could. Many times I did not move until I was sure or verified and a few times that was good insurance.

In hand signal / lantern days you always were positioned to be seen by the engineer or if not possible by another trainman in passing signals. By the speed and tempo of the movement, even with lanterns you could tell the mood of the crew or know to pick up the pace or ease up with nary a word said.

In early Conrail when they had those shoulder strap hung Motorola's they seemed to be reasonably good but still had issues, mainly battery related as I recall. One afternoon one of the brakeman was handling a move inbound to the terminal at Utica, NY. The Conrail Mohawk-Hudson Division HQ was there at Union Station within view of Tower 30 (yard office) and the tie up. Of course many radios were on including the Supe's office (Walter Sparks at the time) and dispatchers among many others.

Well this old-timer for some reason thought his radio failed and he didn't have a very favorable opinion of radio to begin with. As he thought it had failed he began cussing a blue streak about radios, the Conrail management who issued them and anyone associated with such decisions and where they could go and how fast. Problem was - his radio was transmitting beautifully ! As his mike was keyed no one could break in and tell him to, ... well "shut up".

The only thing anyone could do was laugh so hard it hurt. The yard master came out of the tower and started yelling to him and he noticed the rest of the crew doubled over in laughter and unkeyed the mike, a bit embarrassed but likely with former opinion intact of the radio and probably all associated with it.

As far as I recall nothing much was made of the incident, probably the most a verbal reminder of radio etiquette and FCC / railroad radio rules but for a fact it created a lot of laughter all the way around and for a while the question to this guy "hey is your radio working?"



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/18 13:05 by train1275.

Being former SP, I agree with all of the above comments, and the SP brakemen and switchmen had a few little "accents" too.
A brakeman's "three" sign was a switchman's "throw the switch" sign, while a brakeman's "main line" sign was a switchman's "caboose" sign.

Said "caboose" sign was both hands together in a praying position by the right ear with the head leaned to the right, as in sleeping, which I think came from the old switchmen's opinion of what the brakemen did in cabooses?

"Middle track" sign was running your hand sideways across your belly button.
"Siding track" sign was running your hand up and down the side of your ribs.

"One" was obviously one fist in the air, "Two" was two fists, a brakeman's three was the left fist out in front, with the open right hand hitting it on top twice, (one plus two more.)

"Four" was the left hand fingers up, with the right hand covering the left thumb.

A switchman's "seven" was the motion of throwing dice as in playing Craps.
G

Middle and side track signals I relate to as discussed above and signal for down the main was an up and down motion of the arm up and down your body, sort of like a siding signal but centered over the body.

Rear end was slapping your butt.

We used car signals by pumping the arm like four pumps would signal 4 cars and two was both hands up like being held up in a robbery. Half a car to a stop was both arms held out like airplane wings.

Apply brakes was waving your arm back and forth over your head. Release was stabbing your arm straight up with palm out and a good brake test was tapping the top of your head with your hand.

An "easy" as in ease it down or easy as you go was interrupting your come ahead or back up signal either by rotating / waving slower or arm / or lantern up and motionless. In the west I've seen it as both arms in a waving like motion (left arm up, right arm down and alternating).

One night coming up against a switch against us the engineer was not taking my signals and I bailed off the front of the locomotive and heaved the hand lantern against the side of the cab. That got him stopped but the split points were under the fuel tank. - Oops, now we are in trouble !!

ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "One" was obviously one fist in the air, "Two" was
> two fists, a brakeman's three was the left fist
> out in front, with the open right hand hitting it
> on top twice, (one plus two more.)
>
> "Four" was the left hand fingers up, with the
> right hand covering the left thumb.
>
> A switchman's "seven" was the motion of throwing
> dice as in playing Craps.
> G

I came on late (1999) so I never learned all that many hand signals. Numbers were:
1 was one fist in the air
2 was 2 fists in the air
3 was alternating fists in the air right-left-right or left-right-left
4 was one hand up all fingers out with opposite hand hiding the thumb
5 was just one hand up all fingers out
6 was five with a quick thumb up like 5+1
7 was 5 with 2 quick thumb ups 5+1+1
8 both arms circled under to your sides to make a sideways 8
9 was one arm circled under to your side
10 was both arms crossed in front. Also the sign for crossing.

thumbs up with both hands was finished, all done, break time, lunch time, or lets go home depending on where you were at in the shift.

We had a "shove signal". Push both hands forward like you were shoving someone. This one didn't matter which way the engine was facing, it mattered where the cars were coupled to the engine. Forward and back signals were "F" dependent

When I first hired out I heard a story from Louie Antone about a student fireman on the Sierra. Story goes they were switching at Oakdale and after a while one of the brakeman gave the "sign" they were going to the other side, which meant they were now going to pass signals on the firemans side. The hoghead hollered at the student they were coming over to his side. Well they started to give signals to go ahead. The student did not understand the signals he was given, never having worked at night, but he did not want to show his hoghead he was not sure what was going on.

Well the brakemen started giving more violent signals, both swinging their lanterns violently, to get the cut to move ahead. After a few minutes the hoghead asked what was going on back there? The fireman replies, it looks like some kind of fight back there.

ln844south Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And you can get even more specific. On the
> Pensacola Division of the L&N where I use to run,
> and I think on the rest of the system, go ahead
> and back up was based on which direction the
> engine was facing. The front had the "F" near the
> front step, thus going ahead was forward even with
> cars coupled to the front of the engine.

On this, you kinda got to establish a relationship with your engineer. Dual control engines had a "F" on one end, so should that be the front even if the engineer is sitting at the other control stand? I always felt that the engineer always sat on the right, so the front was always in front of HIM, regardless of how the engine was painted. Same with two engines coupled back to back, when there's an "F" on each end.

-LD

On the Santa Fe, UP and the SP at least, the direction the engine was facing absolutely mattered with regard to lantern signals. The "F" was the front end of the engine and the up and down with the lantern was go forward, the circle with the lantern was go back---even if the engine was facing "long end out".

spladiv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the Santa Fe, UP and the SP at least, the
> direction the engine was facing absolutely
> mattered with regard to lantern signals. The "F"
> was the front end of the engine and the up and
> down with the lantern was go forward, the circle
> with the lantern was go back---even if the engine
> was facing "long end out".

Yes, I agree with spladiv. That was the way we always worked it in my career experience. With more than one unit you always worked with the controlling locomotive.

Other signs were Main Line, 2 lead, line up behind and catch the caboose. Make like you have horns on your head and that was the stock track. Oh there was stroking your chin for officers in the area. Then a a brakeman at a switch trying to flap his arms like a bird telling you its going to be a flying switch, Drop on the SP. The best was to go to coffee, go to beans and the best, Power to the house and then Tie Up.

We had a few that could pour something into their other hand and then hit the hand and grind what was there into dust. That meant Go Pound Salt.



Nudge

......and then there were a few that you could probably consider not suitable for all age groups.

Some of these hand signals or “signs” can be compared to the “signing” we see on TV news. Invariably it is someone standing near a state governor or some other politician (today it is the mayor of NY). A close friend was the director of one of California’s schools for the deaf. She has watched a number of those folks on TV news and advises they do not sign very closely to what the speaker is saying and miss many details.

Now that would not work in railroading but on TV they have the ability to show instant and accurate captioning. Since all deaf people I have known are literate, maybe it’s just a matter of political correctness.

Remember these hand signals needed to be seen for up to a mile at night. It would be impossible for an engineer to see which way the brakeman was facing that far away to determine if that circular signal was a come to me or go away from me. Thus up and down for ahead and round for back eliminated confusion in most cases. If it worked that way at night it also worked that way during the day.

Back in the day, I learned simple hand signals in lower peninsula Michigan, day and night signals the same, circle for back up (based on direction the front of the engine was facing)and vertical up & down for go ahead. Stop was standard, an arc below your belt buckle.

Went to work in New Orleans on the Texas & Pacific - Missouri Pacific Terminal Railroad of New Orleans. TP-MPT for short. Was introduced to western style day signals, come to me/go away from me signal the hard way after relaying the "wrong circle" to the engineer while working as the pin puller on a switch job working the lead. The foreman who was used to breaking in new men on this lead job, walked up and explained the difference. I at least had the good sense to keep my mouth shut.

Because of the number of tracks in the yard, our hand counts went as high as twelve.
1 - Fist above shoulder.
2 - Two fists, above each shoulder
3 - Fist smacked into open palm, above head
4 - Two fists, above shoulders shaken
5 - One open hand above shoulder, fingers and thumb spread apart
6 - Begin with five signal, snap fingers into a fist and twist wrist so thumb is sticking up, above shoulder
7 - Throw away motion at waist level with one hand, as described above "shooting craps"
8 - Rub stomach "I just ate"
9 - I can't remember
10 - All fingers and thumbs extended above shoulder
11 - Elbow extended, touching fingers to top of shoulder
12 - Both elbows extended, touching fingers to both shoulders.
13 - signal for three, then signal for ten, and so forth
23 - same as thirteen, but signal for ten was given twice. This was the hold track for bad orders.

Night signals
1 through 4 - a short vertical flick of the lantern at waist height, one to four times
5 - an arc, like an upside down stop signal.
combinations for higher numbers, 23 as an example - four arcs, back and forth like a windshield wiper, then three vertical flicks.

Night signals were repeated by the recipient. The engine foreman, aka yard conductor, would give a washout signal if there was a "failure to communicate", then repeat the signal. When the correct signal was returned, the foreman would signal a kick sign, lantern swung in a tight horizontal circle, and the field man would line the appropriate switch to receive the car(s).

Other day signals
Head through a cross-over - tap head, followed by a slashing motion across your throat
Back through a cross-over - tap butt, followed by a slashing motion across your throat
Go on the spot, usually by the yard office - fingers closed into a fist, thumb extended above mouth and then thumb tilted down toward mouth. I think this was derived from a steam era signal to take water, the thumb imitating a spout.
Head to the (engine) house and tie up- tap head, make a tee-pee above your head with fingers from both hands (a house), then rotate one finger vertically above shoulder.
Slow down - the typical signal for movement, done slowly, used when coupling cars.
Go slow - hands palm up on either side of waist, raising and lowering hands alternately. Used in coupling.
Cars coupled - fingers interlocked like the knuckles on couplers.
Stretch the joint - Short horizontal move of closed fist at waist level, followed by a stop signal if the joint was made.
Going between cars to couple air hoses - An exaggerated motion in front of you coupling air hoses at chest height.

Alex Huff



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/18 20:44 by dsrc512.

Here's a Universal signal nobody's mentioned. Holding your nose. Meaning hot box.

What could be a universal hand signal on a blind shove from the '70's and early hand-held radios: My radio failed in the blind part of the shove, so I dropped off the step and threw it into the air. The engineer saw the arcing hand-held and brought the movement to a nice stop ...