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Date: 10/11/18 18:18
Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: sarailfan

My understanding of train order rules is decent, but not able to answer today's question. I know when you're running multiple sections of a timetable schedule all but the last are required to display green signals (flags or lights) on the head end. Do those sections have to carry a marker on the rear, or only the final section to indicate that the train (schedule) is complete?

A quick Google search for the Canadian UCOR, 1951 and 1962 editions gave me confirmation of the green signals, but not how the markers are handled.

Posted from Android

Darren Boes
Lethbridge, AB
Southern Alberta Railfan



Date: 10/11/18 19:07
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Railbaron

Each train, and sections thereof, will carry markers.



Date: 10/11/18 19:40
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: sarailfan

Thanks! Makes observation of those green flags and the lack thereof on the last section even more critical doesn't it?

Posted from Android

Darren Boes
Lethbridge, AB
Southern Alberta Railfan



Date: 10/11/18 20:28
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Railbaron

Yes it does.



Date: 10/11/18 20:29
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Railbaron

Keep in mind the green flags / lights indicate more sections are coming so the final section having no flags or lights is the one that counts most. 



Date: 10/11/18 21:04
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: eminence_grise

There was a locomotive whistle signal to be sounded by every section but the last one when meeting opposing trains.

sarailfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks! Makes observation of those green flags and
> the lack thereof on the last section even more
> critical doesn't it?
>
> Posted from Android



Date: 10/12/18 03:02
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: hoggerdoug

Uniform Code of Operating Rules ::  Rule 14, engine whistle signals
rule 14 K,  _oo (one long, two short) indicates signals displayed for following section.
rule  14 L  oo_ ( two short, one long)  answer to 14 K
Doug

eminence_grise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was a locomotive whistle signal to be
> sounded by every section but the last one when
> meeting opposing trains.
>
> sarailfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks! Makes observation of those green flags
> and
> > the lack thereof on the last section even more
> > critical doesn't it?
> >
> > Posted from Android



Date: 10/12/18 07:17
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: LarryDoyle

Suppose you're Extra 1234 East   Single track railroad.   You have no paper on it but you are working against Frist Class train No.1's schedule. You may proceed, but must, of course,  get into the clear at some siding of your choosing to allow No. 1 to meet you.  Then you may proceed when you see No. 1 is not displaying green class signals and is displaying markers.  His train is complete.   No. 1 probably doesn't even know your train exists.

If, however, No 1 is displaying green signals you must wait for Second No. 1 as that train is moving on the same schedule as first No. 1.  Your wait may be anything from a few minutes to a few hours!

However, if the dispatcher gave you a copy of an order such as "SECOND NO 1 RUN 55 MINUTES LATE ALPHA TO ROMEO", then you may proceed against 2nd No. 1 on its revised schedule and pick a suitable point to meet second No. 1.  If first No. 1 had not been wearing markers, then you could not assume 1st No 1 was complete so could not proceed.

Thus each section of a multi-section train displays markers.

-Larry Doyle



Date: 10/12/18 07:29
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: sarailfan

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suppose you're Extra 1234 East 
> However, if the dispatcher gave you a copy of an
> order such as "SECOND NO 1 RUN 55 MINUTES LATE
> ALPHA TO ROMEO", then you may proceed against 2nd
> No. 1 on its revised schedule and pick a suitable
> point to meet second No. 1.  If first No. 1 had
> not been wearing markers, then you could not
> assume 1st No 1 was complete so could not
> proceed.
>
> Thus each section of a multi-section train
> displays markers.
>

That's the part I had failed to consider. I was assuming the sections would be right behind each other, obviously on the railroad one assumes nothing!

Posted from Android

Darren Boes
Lethbridge, AB
Southern Alberta Railfan



Date: 10/12/18 09:43
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Cumbres

A rule book that is in my collection states that the definition of a train is:  A locomotive, with or without cars, displaying markers to the rear.

So each train, whether a scheduled train, section of a scheduled train or an extra train would all be displaying markers. 



Date: 10/12/18 10:25
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: TAW

Cumbres Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A rule book that is in my collection states that
> the definition of a train is:  A locomotive, with
> or without cars, displaying markers to the rear.
>
> So each train, whether a scheduled train, section
> of a scheduled train or an extra train would all
> be displaying markers. 

The presence of the locomotive AND markers is important. A train owns the track between the locomotive and the markers, even if the train is in two pieces. A train that is meeting an opposing train that has a locomotive but no markers has not met that train. It must not proceed. A train that overtakes cars with markers but no locomotive must no proceed. The locomotive, wherever it is, is entitled to return to the train.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1077953,1078926#msg-1078926 Date: 01/14/06 10:28 Re: More about Hiland and train orders... Author: TAW

TAW



Date: 10/12/18 11:07
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: EtoinShrdlu

> A rule book that is in my collection states that the definition of a train is: A locomotive, with or without cars, displaying markers to the rear.

> So each train, whether a scheduled train, section of a scheduled train or an extra train would all be displaying markers.

Yes. Markers define the rear of a train, so an engine with some cars and not displaying a marker isn't complete; it isn't a "train".

Indicators, on the locomotive, are used to define whether it is a regular train, sections of a regular train, or an extra train. The classification flags/lights on a locomotive display nothing for a regular train or white flags/lights for an extra. On some railroads, like the SP, regular trains displayed the schedule number (and section number when applicable) in the "number boards", others simply displayed the engine number. Green classification flags/lights meant "section following".

Confusing often arises in the use of the words "green lights". Marker lights usually had one red lens and three green ones (the red lens is usually larger than the others). When a train was in a siding for a meet, the markers were turned so that they displayed green to the rear. This is a simple explanation because actual practice varied between railroads (AT&SF used yellow instead of green) and which era you're studying. The procedures to be followed varied from situation to situation, such as which maker was turned green (and which wasn't) when a train was in a center siding in D-251 territory, whether it was moving against the current of traffic, and for single track which of the two markers was turned green when a train was in a siding (some RRs turned only the marker next to the main, others turned both).



Date: 10/12/18 11:21
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Trainhand

On this thought, it was rumored that in Waycross,ga division offices, during WWII there was a clearance card for the 15'th section of a passenger train between waycross and Albany, ga on the former ACL. If there were 15 sections of a train you know some poor local was in a siding waiting on #123, and had to sit through all sections.



Date: 10/12/18 18:23
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: spnudge

The whole things starts with the dispatcher and what kind of clearance and orders a train gets. That sets the whole trip and who is who and where.


Nudge



Date: 10/12/18 20:00
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: TAW

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The whole things starts with the dispatcher and
> what kind of clearance and orders a train gets.
> That sets the whole trip and who is who and
> where.

Some situations may call for a unique approach. I know of a NYC colleague who ran the hook as the first section of a passenger train because it was the only way to move it against opposing trains that he was unable to reach to give them something on the hook. The passenger train ran as the second section. I hung rags (signals for a folowing section) on 375 (Starpacer - first class train) out of Los Angeles one night to keep the San Fernando switcher in the clear. There was no second section. I have let regular trains just die (schedule expires after 12 hours overdue) because it wasn't worth the effort to annul the train. The train order rules were a toolbox. If Spatch knew them and how to apply them, there was a variety of unusual things one might see.

TAW



Date: 10/13/18 10:35
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: eminence_grise

During the tourist seasons before the "Canadian" was introduced in 1955, the "Dominion" ran in multiple sections between Calgary and Vancouver. One section originated at Montreal, another at Toronto, but there were years where it ran in as many as seven sections. At least one section was all "head end" business, mail and express with a rider coach. Occasionaly, freight cabooses would be carried on this section.

One pioneer movie photographer set up between the Spiral Tunnels and photographed the whole parade of "Dominions" which took several hours.



Date: 10/13/18 12:06
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Txhighballer

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> spnudge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The whole things starts with the dispatcher and
> > what kind of clearance and orders a train gets.
> > That sets the whole trip and who is who and
> > where.
>
> Some situations may call for a unique approach. I
> know of a NYC colleague who ran the hook as the
> first section of a passenger train because it was
> the only way to move it against opposing trains
> that he was unable to reach to give them something
> on the hook. The passenger train ran as the second
> section. I hung rags (signals for a folowing
> section) on 375 (Starpacer - first class train)
> out of Los Angeles one night to keep the San
> Fernando switcher in the clear. There was no
> second section. I have let regular trains just die
> (schedule expires after 12 hours overdue) because
> it wasn't worth the effort to annul the train. The
> train order rules were a toolbox. If Spatch knew
> them and how to apply them, there was a variety of
> unusual things one might see.
>
> TAW

Could you imagine the look on the opposing crews' face when they saw a wrecker running as the first section of a passenger train? That would have been priceless!



Date: 10/13/18 17:57
Another use for "following section" whistle signal
Author: Jim700

hoggerdoug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uniform Code of Operating Rules:  Rule 14, engine whistle signals
> rule 14 K,  _oo (one long, two short) indicates signals displayed for following section.
> rule  14 L  oo_ ( two short, one long)  answer to 14 K


Under the Consolidated Code of Operating Rules which I worked the notification signal was the same but the acknowledging signal was different.

Consolidated Code of Operating Rules:  Rule 15, engine whistle signals
Rule 15(k)  
__  (one long, two short) indicates signals displayed for following section(s)
Rule 15(g)  
(two short)  answer to 15(k) or any signal not otherwise provided for

Another use of the "following section" signal (which was quite unofficial) was as a greeting between locomotive engineers who were meeting each other on the railroad and on an adjacent parallel highway.  As a driver I would flash the "following section" signal with my vehicle headlights to the oncoming train which often was acknowledged by the engineer with two short movements of the headlight switch to the "off" position if there were no other trains or a road crossing nearby.  Likewise, as a locomotive engineer I have experienced that greeting from oncoming drivers on an adjacent highway.  Of course that was many years ago and only the very oldest heads would have any possibility of knowing that signal nowadays as a result of the long-ago demise of TT&TO operation.




Date: 10/14/18 00:32
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Wildebeest

LarryDoyle Wrote:

> Thus each section of a multi-section train
> displays markers.

That's a good description, but that last sentence should say "...each section of a multi-section train except the last section displays markers."  I suspect that's what you meant.

D F W

 



Date: 10/14/18 04:46
Re: Markers on sections in ttto rules
Author: Buhl56

Wildebeest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LarryDoyle Wrote:
>
> > Thus each section of a multi-section train
> > displays markers.
>
> That's a good description, but that last sentence
> should say "...each section of a multi-section
> train except the last section displays markers." 
> I suspect that's what you meant.
>
> D F W
>
 Nope.   The last sentence  should say "...each section of a multi-section train except the last section
displays SIGNALS on the front end.  (green flag or lights for following section)" 

EVERY train (scheduled, extra or any section) must display MARKERS on the rear end.  (Red lights, dim headlight, or Fred) 



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