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Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX 700 Aftermath


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Date: 02/18/01 07:21
CSX 700 Aftermath
Author: k8dti

A few folks may be interested to see the condition of the jacks in the tragic wreck at Carlisle. Please continue to keep the men and their families in your prayers.....

These photos are from the Cincinnati Enquirer, www.enquirer.com, taken by Tony Jones.




Date: 02/18/01 07:22
RE: CSX 256 Aftermath
Author: k8dti

A few folks may be interested to see the condition of the jacks in the tragic wreck at Carlisle. Please continue to keep the men and their families in your prayers.....

These photos are from the Cincinnati Enquirer, www.enquirer.com, taken by Tony Jones.




Date: 02/18/01 09:40
RE: CSX 256 Aftermath
Author: Odie

When did this accident occur?? Recently???



Date: 02/18/01 10:27
RE: CSX 256 Aftermath
Author: LX15840

Odie,
This just happened early Saturday morning (yesterday). See the earlier thread re the "rearender"



Date: 02/18/01 11:58
Will CSX 700 be repaired or is it beyond repair?
Author: mc-130e_mxs

I was wondering if 700 will be repaired or not. Seems like a bent frame would have occured if it were the lead unit in a rear-ender.

Paul



Date: 02/18/01 13:33
RE: Thoughts on cab signals
Author: cr3317

My thinking is that 700 will be repaired, simply because it is the class unit, and has a name on it. Also, I think the internal components are in good shape. However, I think this might be a Juniata job. Heck, they are the ones rebuiding and painting CSX units right now, so why not?

But more importantly, this accident is recent case number one (there are several others) of why all mainlines should be required by the FRA to have cab signals, and all engines should be required to have alerters. When was the last time a Conrail crew fell asleep and hit another train since alerters have been in? The last accident on the Chicago Line (rear-ender which killed two and involved three trains) was likely a result of thick fog that night. This brings me around my other point of cab signals.

There is simply no excuse for tragedies like this to continually happen, and the FRA, the railroads, and all government personal owe it to all those who have lost their lives in these incidents to mandate cab signals on all mainlines, and alerters on all locomotives.


Scott H



Date: 02/18/01 14:01
CSXT 700/256
Author: mp57

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind both of these units will be repaired.



Date: 02/18/01 14:27
RE: Thoughts on cab signals
Author: metallica

Word going around CSX is that the crew on the auto rack train took a Restricted Proceed signal,rounded a curve and seen a clear signal way ahead and took it and started to notch out.By rule when running at restricted speed,you cannot accelerate until the rear of your train has passed the next more favorible signal.
The iron ore train had a defective EOT so the rack train did not see the rear of their train untill it was too late.By rule the rack train's crew should have been able to stop within one half the range of vission not exceeding 15 MPH.
My opinion is the dispatcher should have notified the crew on the rack train that a train ahead of them had a defective EOT,therefore,they may not have broke the rule and speed up in advance.
Granted,this is all speculation by other crews and the true reasons will not be released for sometime,but in cab signals would not have made a differance if the crew didn't fallow the rules,but an alerter or a device that would shut down the train when a signal rule is ignored would have saved at least two lives on this mornful day.
Just my opinion,nothing more.
All stated above may or may not be entirely true as it is only the conclusions drawn up by other crews.
Rest in peace my railroad brethern.
MetallicA



Date: 02/18/01 14:46
RE: You've Got To Be Kidding!
Author: Runs4TheNS

C'mon guys... give it a rest already. One crewmember is dead and two others are reported to be in the hospital, with at least one (or both) having a broken neck. We're talking one family who will never see a loved one again, and two others who may have to deal with some serious health issues. Is this all the railan community can talk about, whether or not the locomotives will be repaired? Personally, I don't care whether or not the units involved were a class unit, have bent frames, or what kind of shape they are in otherwise. All of that machinery can be replaced, but the people involved cannot. So a couple of precious CSX locomotives are battered... BFD. As long as they can determine HOW it happened and prevent someone else from going through this tragedy is what really matters!



Date: 02/18/01 14:49
RE: Will CSX 700 be repaired or is it beyond repai
Author: redneckrailfan

After looking at the posted photos, you can pretty much count on both the SD70MAC and the AC4400CW being repaired. Both locomotives are intact and the damage really isn't as extensive as it could have been. My assuption is that both units will end up going to Huntington shops for rebuilding.

Bryan



Date: 02/18/01 16:34
RE: You've Got To Be Kidding!
Author: PeachFuzz

Wait one minute.

I understand your concern for the crewmembers involved in this incident. But, this is primarily a railfan list. I doubt very many people here knew the persons involved.

It seems everytime one of these accidents occurs, and someone requests information about the equipment involved, there is a backlash from someone. I have even observed people taken to task after asking what the engine numbers were for units involved in an accident. What harm is there in asking a question? Does that show some sort of lack of concern for the people involved?

Yes, this was a bad accident. But as observers of the rail scene, there is nothing we can do to determine the cause, or prevent it from happening again.



Date: 02/18/01 16:52
RE: Thoughts on cab signals
Author: gladhand

The rear of the train has passed a more favorable indication? Far different than restricted speed on other railroads! The leading wheels only.



Date: 02/18/01 18:27
RE: You've Got To Be Kidding!
Author: Runs4TheNS

PeachFuzz wrote:
>
> Wait one minute.
>
> I understand your concern for the crewmembers involved in this
> incident. But, this is primarily a railfan list. I doubt very
> many people here knew the persons involved.

Should it really matter if you knew the person or not?

> It seems everytime one of these accidents occurs, and someone
> requests information about the equipment involved, there is a
> backlash from someone. I have even observed people taken to
> task after asking what the engine numbers were for units
> involved in an accident. What harm is there in asking a
> question? Does that show some sort of lack of concern for the
> people involved?

Requesting information on the equipment involved is innocent enough, but debating back and forth about whether or not the equipment will be rebuilt borders on some sick preoccupation, IMHO. We're talking about people's lives here... does it matter if the locomotives are rebuilt?

>
> Yes, this was a bad accident. But as observers of the rail
> scene, there is nothing we can do to determine the cause, or
> prevent it from happening again.

And as observers, you also have to realize that there are more than a few railroaders taking part in this forum for which those answers DO matter. For fans to sit there and lament at the possible loss of two pieces of machinery as if THEY are the real victims shows a real lack of respect toward the people who are employed in the field.

How would you feel if one of your family members or coworkers was killed in an auto accident, and some car buffs were to start asking "Yeah, it's a shame the people were killed, but do you think they'll be able to fix the car?"

I'm willing to bet your point of view would change radically if that were the case...



Date: 02/18/01 19:03
I can understand how it happened
Author: Diddle_E._Squat

If true about the Restricting and then seeing the Clear ahead, that's kinda scary. Can definitely see it happening, though by rule it shouldn't. Trains with dark rears are supposed to be notified, but crews often don't. Once heard an 25+ year experienced engineer remark after hearing one crew tell another about their dark rear end, "That should be kept to themselves". Guys do bend the rules, and here's an excellent example of how it would be difficult to anticipate the unique conditions, but it happened. Not until leading wheel passes the signal.

Will remind me to keep diligent about the finer points of the rules. I see what they mean about every rule being paid in blood. Hoping this isn't the case, but if the rear-ended train's crew was whispering the call of signals, the follower might be even more inclined to think the clear was theirs. Shoulda heard the stopped train discuss its stop with the dispatcher, but when qualifying could have had a lot of talk in the cab. Again, hope this isn't the case, but if the conductor was nodding off, reading, etc., that would be one less pair of ears to catch what the engineers' might have missed. But we don't know how much and what the radio traffic was. Not trying to speculate, but rather prove how easily this could happen to even good crews. I always appreciate the engineers who give perhaps somewhat redundant radio info to following trains, such as telling them they are stopped. Same for dispatchers.

There are good reasons to have at least 2 persons in the cab, but can be negated by carelessness. Someday Amtrak will be hit hard in a similar scenario when a diligent second person in the cab might have prevented it(I guess Syracuse earlier this month wasn't enough). So does Amtrak have a third person in the cab when utilizing a pilot? Hopefully some states or the FRA will finally mandate 2 persons in the cab of all passenger trains.



Date: 02/18/01 19:50
RE: Dark rear end
Author: CSX_CO

Is it possible, that the K188 didn't know the rear end was dark?

Had it passed any trains since leaving Lima?

If it hadn't met any trains, then they would have had no way of knowing their EOT was defective. Other than if the HTD told them.

I think Metallica's scenario is the most probable. Q243 is a Toledo-Cincinatti train. K188 gets recrewed in Lima, and is usually a heavy Ore Train. K188 may have been going slower than line speed, and the Q243 may not have been following it for very long. But, it is all specualation until the FRA issues their report.

I must agree with Runs4theNS. Everytime there is a wreck, it seems people would rather know the engine's involved, and not the people.

Another example was then the UP Centennial was wrecked. People cared more about if it were going to get Wings, then how the rest of the crew in the cab was. We know a UP offical died...what happened to the Engineer?

But, this may be something the railroaders can only understand. There is a brotherhood (and more and more a sisterhood) among railroad employee's everywhere. It transends the Unions, the terminals, and the Companies we work for.

It's too bad it takes a fatal wreck to bring us closer together. It doesn't matter what paint the unit wears...we all lost a fellow brother on Saturday.

Take care
be safe



Date: 02/18/01 21:10
RE: Dark rear end
Author: Chessie_8563

Some people just dont care about the people because they dont have a connection to them and cant see how it will affect there lifes. The same can be said for a locomotive however. Buts still I dont see any problem in a board like this asking. "will 700 be fixed" Or asking "will the rest of the crew be okay". If you really dont want to hear about it dont look at it. Noone told you to look at the question. Another reason why some people ask because they have a connection to that unit such as they ran it or there first cab ride was in it. While not (and will never be) as significant as a human life theres still some significance to that question.

I feal sorry for the familys of the dead, But I still would like to know weather 700 will be rebuilt.



Date: 02/18/01 21:55
Re: The Spirit of Cumberland
Author: BCM

Unlike most railroad units, that lead unit, CSX #700, was dedicated to a group of railroad employees - those that work in and around the CSX facilities at Cumberland, Maryland. A great number of the residents and locals to that town, many of them CSX railroad employees, care a great deal about THAT unit. Many of them have attended the annual Railroad Day sponsored by CSX and taken the tour of the facility AND a tour inside the cab of CSX #700 - the unit displayed there on that day for cab tours for the last two years because it IS the "Spirit of Cumberland"...

Yes, the fate of CSX #700 cannot compare in human terms to that of its fallen crew (God bless them), but there are many people - most of which are railroaders - who care about that unit...

Does anyone have an update on the engineer and conductor? We're praying for them (as well as the families of all the crew)...
- BCM



Date: 02/19/01 05:49
Are you suggesting???
Author: thatlldo

Diddle_E._Squat wrote:
>
>
> Will remind me to keep diligent about the finer points of the
> rules. I see what they mean about every rule being paid in
> blood. Hoping this isn't the case, but if the rear-ended
> train's crew was whispering the call of signals, the follower
> might be even more inclined to think the clear was theirs.
> Shoulda heard the stopped train discuss its stop with the
> dispatcher, but when qualifying could have had a lot of talk in
> the cab. Again, hope this isn't the case, but if the conductor
> was nodding off, reading, etc., that would be one less pair of
> ears to catch what the engineers' might have missed. But we
> don't know how much and what the radio traffic was. Not trying
> to speculate, but rather prove how easily this could happen to
> even good crews. I always appreciate the engineers who give
> perhaps somewhat redundant radio info to following trains, such
> as telling them they are stopped. Same for dispatchers.
>

Are you suggesting there is the possibility that a crew or crew member might be at fault in this accident.

However, for you or I to suggest such a possibility will invite a great deal of criticism. I had the temerity to "suggest" the CN T&E crew might have been partly responsible for the debacle involving the movement of double stack containers under a "too low" bridge (see thread a page or two down). Wow, did I ever catch hell. Evidently, some folks posting on these pages would like us to think that working rails do not make mistakes. Or, if on the rare occasion they do, we are not to question their actions. Sadly, working rails screw up on occasion, and when they do, it may produce disastrous results. That is why rules are written in blood.



Date: 02/19/01 06:22
RE: Are you suggesting???
Author: gladhand

Yes, we screw-up, on a regular basis. Perhaps we just don't care for "second guessing" from people totally unfamiliar with the industry. Railroad discipline is swift & harsh! After all, what other industry has "fire insurance"? Tred a kilometer in our reboks.



Date: 02/19/01 06:32
RE: Are you suggesting???
Author: PeachFuzz

"Perhaps we just don't care for "second guessing" from people totally unfamiliar with the industry."

So, I give up... Why are you here? As I told "Runs4theNS" in a direct email, I continue to wonder about the presence of professional rails on this board. Is it only to throw verbal stones at the railfans on this list, or to lecture "people totally unfamiliar with the industry".

Clear up the confusion for me?



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