Eastern Railroad Discussion > Chicago to North Jersey Question

Good Afternoon:

How did the Erie Lackawanna compare to PRR and NYC as far as speeds, intermodal transit time, and mileage from Chicago to North Jersey? What was it abandoned and the other two routes preserved?

Also, why did the NYC route ultimately keep mainline traffic whereas the PRR was downgraded west of Alliance, OH?

Thank you in advance.

I believe the EL had the UPS traffic.
Infer from that what you want.

Remember that Conrail (Con Job) was a political solution to an
economic problem.  The EL had no chance.  Others will tell you how
superior the PC routes were and how the EL had no traffic base.

 

CSXT_8437 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good Afternoon:
>
> How did the Erie Lackawanna compare to PRR and NYC
> as far as speeds, intermodal transit time, and
> mileage from Chicago to North Jersey? What was it
> abandoned and the other two routes preserved?
>
> Also, why did the NYC route ultimately keep
> mainline traffic whereas the PRR was downgraded
> west of Alliance, OH?

I wasn't present at the meetings, but I suspect both have to do with on-line traffic. West of Alliance the Pennsy route's biggest city was Fort Wayne, while the Erie's was probably Mansfield or Lima. Neither of those compares with Cleveland and Toledo, plus the latter provided a major hub for Detroit-area industrial traffic flowing east, south, and west. If you keep the PRR you also still have to maintain the other lines for heavy tonnage generated along the ex-NYC, and the Erie was even worse off in that regard. The New York Central route also had the advantage of already having bi-directional CTC, whereas the Pennsy had never made as much technological investment and its mainline was still littered with stick rail, current-of-traffic running, and towers. The Erie also was technologically much older than the NYC.

The two hotest trains on the EL
E/B 2NY100  Chi 0430 to Croxton 1100 next day ~ 30.5 hours
WB A-CX99  Croxton 0300 to Chicago 0745 next day ~ 28.5 hours
compares pretty well with todays schedule
As an aside
When the NYSW was running intermodals there e/b 258 run in conjuction with NS to Buffalo then former Erie and NYSW to North Jersey ran a 28hour schedule.

west of Alliance was downgraded to funnel all traffic up the Cleveland Line to the NYC where CR dropped tons of cash capital funding to upgrade the line for 60mph freight running ... it was the "BIG X PLAN" Buffalo to St Louis & Chicago to North Jersey where the "X" occurred at Berea ...

Here's the approximate mileage for each railroad NYC-CHI.

PRR - 910 miles
NYC - 961 miles
Erie/EL - 999 miles

Hills--the EL had lots of them, the Water Level Route, well, consider the name.

I wanted to go to Chicago in the worst way.

So I bought a ticket on the Erie...

Posted from Android

I think EL had the UPS business partly because it had a double track railroad (in most places) with relatively light traffic that allowed it to meet the schedule reliably. That, and the big North Jersey UPS distribution center was just down the road (County Avenue) from Croxton Yard. It's possible that UPS located there BECAUSE it was just down the road from Croxton, I don't know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/17 17:38 by CPR_4000.

I've got more to add, but essentially Toledopatch and Out of Service make very good points. Maybe tomorrow, because I know a bit about this. Want to watch 'Frontline' tonight in a few minutes.

Erie's passenger service was the slowest of the three....hills and curves and miles.

I wonder if UPS built the facility on County Road in Secaucus because Erie was already across the street?

That said, the USPS also has a huge bulk mail facility nearby in Secaucus, and has (had?) a huge mail facility adjacent to Meadows Maintenance,CSX South Kearny, and the NEC into NYC. Conrail and PC originated mail trains from that point, too.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if UPS built the facility on County Road
> in Secaucus because Erie was already across the
> street?
>
> That said, the USPS also has a huge bulk mail
> facility nearby in Secaucus, and has (had?) a huge
> mail facility adjacent to Meadows Maintenance,CSX
> South Kearny, and the NEC into NYC. Conrail and PC
> originated mail trains from that point, too.

UPS was already there.  EL gained the business because they agreed to tailor the trains to UPS's needs with a late cut off.  PC did not want to agree to this.  Once they gained the business, the EL worked very hard to keep it. 

Great article in an early 1970's Progressive Railroader about EL's "UPS effort(s)" but I have long since forgotten which issue.

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CSXT_8437 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Good Afternoon:
> >
> > How did the Erie Lackawanna compare to PRR and
> NYC
> > as far as speeds, intermodal transit time, and
> > mileage from Chicago to North Jersey? What was
> it
> > abandoned and the other two routes preserved?
> >
> > Also, why did the NYC route ultimately keep
> > mainline traffic whereas the PRR was downgraded
> > west of Alliance, OH?
>
> I wasn't present at the meetings, but I suspect
> both have to do with on-line traffic. West of
> Alliance the Pennsy route's biggest city was Fort
> Wayne, while the Erie's was probably Mansfield or
> Lima. Neither of those compares with Cleveland and
> Toledo, plus the latter provided a major hub for
> Detroit-area industrial traffic flowing east,
> south, and west. If you keep the PRR you also
> still have to maintain the other lines for heavy
> tonnage generated along the ex-NYC, and the Erie
> was even worse off in that regard. The New York
> Central route also had the advantage of already
> having bi-directional CTC, whereas the Pennsy had
> never made as much technological investment and
> its mainline was still littered with stick rail,
> current-of-traffic running, and towers. The Erie
> also was technologically much older than the NYC.

When I was at Ft Wayne, Indiana, on the N&W in the 1980's an acquaintance was the Division Engineer Construction.  He had started on the Pennsy years before.  He said the PRR was the best constructed Chicago railroad west of, say, Crestline, Ohio.  But as mentioned, it had older technology (some jointed rail, 251 running, interlocking towers) and its most significant cities were Lima, Ohio, and Ft Wayne.  But in the late 1970's it still had a lot of trains.

NYSWSD70M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wonder if UPS built the facility on County Road in Secaucus because Erie was already across the street?
> >
> > That said, the USPS also has a huge bulk mail facility nearby in Secaucus, and has (had?) a huge
> > mail facility adjacent to Meadows Maintenance,CSX South Kearny, and the NEC into NYC. Conrail and
> PC originated mail trains from that point, too.
>
> UPS was already there.  EL gained the business because they agreed to tailor the trains to UPS's
> needs with a late cut off.  PC did not want to agree to this.  Once they gained the business,
> the EL worked very hard to keep it. 
>
> Great article in an early 1970's Progressive Railroader about EL's "UPS effort(s)" but I have
> long since forgotten which issue.

There was a great article in TRAINS about it also. A source for the article (conrail employee) stated the EL routes were good but there was no business along them. The Erie Delaware Div had been single tracked and signal system was 1 direction only. The Greenwood lake branch was single track squeeze at Great Notch and both routes were pusher districts. When talking about rates for the UPS contract the source indicated the EL misbid the contract: they lost a little on every trailer but made it up in volume.  

The freight on the Greenwood lake branch at Great Notch went by way of Scranton

Posted from Android

elu34ch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NYSWSD70M Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I wonder if UPS built the facility on
> County Road in Secaucus because Erie was already
> across the street?
> > >
> > > That said, the USPS also has a huge bulk
> mail facility nearby in Secaucus, and has (had?)
> a huge
> > > mail facility adjacent to
> Meadows Maintenance,CSX South Kearny, and the
> NEC into NYC. Conrail and
> > PC originated mail trains from that point,
> too.
> >
> > UPS was already there.  EL gained the
> business because they agreed to tailor the trains
> to UPS's
> > needs with a late cut off.  PC did not want
> to agree to this.  Once they gained the
> business,
> > the EL worked very hard to keep it. 
> >
> > Great article in an early 1970's
> Progressive Railroader about EL's "UPS effort(s)"
> but I have
> > long since forgotten which issue.
>
> There was a great article in TRAINS about it also.
> A source for the article (conrail employee) stated
> the EL routes were good but there was no business
> along them. The Erie Delaware Div had been single
> tracked and signal system was 1 direction only.
> The Greenwood lake branch was single track squeeze
> at Great Notch and both routes were pusher
> districts. When talking about rates for the UPS
> contract the source indicated the EL misbid the
> contract: they lost a little on every trailer but
> made it up in volume.  

The EL did not have the on line business that the PRR or NYC had but they had very good end to end business.  Even in the recession hard year of 1975 they had 10 scheduled trains each way.  The article you are referring to was in the Jan/Feb 1981 Trains and was discussing the EL lines under Conrail.  Conrail "demarketed" the EL lines for local business and had better routes for the through business.  Even under the Erie/EL, the Delaware division was light on traffic.  The Ford plant in Mahwah being the exception ( and even mentioned in the Trains articles).  This lack of traffic is why the EL started shifting the business off of the Delaware and onto the DL&W east of Binghamton after the PC merger.  Even some of the Mahwah business was going over the DL&W by 1975.

Still, these lines under the EL had a much different story under Erie/EL ownership vs Conrail.  The were quite busy under EL.  Conrail had plenty of capacity elsewhere and didn't even need all of the PRR lines as it turned out.

As far as the UPS business was concerned, it sounds like PC sour grapes.  The EL had done extensive studies of their TOFC meat traffic and found it was a huge loser.  The margins were so low, they had trouble even covering the inevitable shrinkage (cargo loss) that you experience in the shipping business.  Considerable effort was spent on finding a replacement for their "core" TOFC/COFC business.  The UPS business came with acceptable margins for the day and even better, was predominately westbound!  PC tried to get this business back for years and only seemed to have success in markets where the EL was weak (Boston, Philadelphia, ect - all markets with smaller volumes than New York).  The ATSF acquisition study even points out how "good" the EL/UPS traffic was when they studied the carrier for a possible bid.

While the hill at Great Notch was difficult, trains were not pushed on a regular basis.  Also the line was double track from Great Notch to the drawbridge just short of Croxton.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/17 13:11 by NYSWSD70M.

With out getting into which Bingo-Croxton route was better, they both had their advantages.  But the Erie side took a major traffic hit with PC as traffic was diverted away from the Maybrook gateway with the acquisiton of the NH and completely abandoned in May '74 with the bridge burning.  And seeing as the Mahwah plant closed in '81 there is still some traffic but not what had been.  CR in the late 70's early 80's ran a good amount of traffic down the Erie.  I grew up in Ramsey and remember going down to the tracks after school and regualarly seeing 5-6 freights.  That trimmed down only to see a resurgence with double stacks as the Erie was the only route in to NJ with clearence.  That then faded with the reverline clearence project and virtually ended when the PRR was cleared for DS.  Today NS runs H70?(I think) up to CH daily and its consist is not much to speak about except when grain runs to the milling co in Paterson which goes to Suffern and then back to Paterson.  Irony now is both routes are run by regionals(NYSW and DL), with the DLW side missing the cutoff.  Often wonder what would have been had NYSW continued down the path with CN when the CR split was happening. 

Bay State Milling (on the former Erie Main Line at the US 46 overpass in Clifton) handles a lot of grain cars.  There are usually 8-10 cars in the area.  They have (had?) a trackmobile handlng the traffic

pal77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With out getting into which Bingo-Croxton route
> was better, they both had their advantages.  But
> the Erie side took a major traffic hit with PC as
> traffic was diverted away from the Maybrook
> gateway with the acquisiton of the NH and
> completely abandoned in May '74 with the bridge
> burning.  And seeing as the Mahwah plant closed
> in '81 there is still some traffic but not what
> had been.  CR in the late 70's early 80's ran a
> good amount of traffic down the Erie.  I grew up
> in Ramsey and remember going down to the tracks
> after school and regualarly seeing 5-6 freights. 
> That trimmed down only to see a resurgence with
> double stacks as the Erie was the only route in to
> NJ with clearence.  That then faded with the
> reverline clearence project and virtually ended
> when the PRR was cleared for DS.  Today NS runs
> H70?(I think) up to CH daily and its consist is
> not much to speak about except when grain runs to
> the milling co in Paterson which goes to Suffern
> and then back to Paterson.  Irony now is both
> routes are run by regionals(NYSW and DL), with the
> DLW side missing the cutoff.  Often wonder what
> would have been had NYSW continued down the path
> with CN when the CR split was happening. 

Agreed.  Also,  what looked good in 1960 had changed dramatically by 1970.  I am not trying to favor one over the other, just raise a few of the points to consider.

1960.  Both the Erie and the DL&W handled a great deal of traffic bound for the New Haven.  The DL&W worked with the L&HR.  The DL&W traffic was re-routed directly to the NH at Maybrook.  The Erie had a lower (as in elevation) crossing of the Alleghenies.  Since the diesel of the day were still small, this gave a big advantage to the Erie.  Mahwah was a huge traffic generator - both inbound parts and finished autos.  In 1963, the EL gave up 3 miles of the DL&W Boonton line at Garrett Mountain which meant the last 15 miles were over the inferior Erie Greenwood Lakes branch for any freight using the DL&W side.

1970 (or more accurately 1972 when the plan started to fall into place).  The New Haven was gone and PC was doing everything they could do to legally demarket Maybrook.  The Erie side had a lot of curves and along with it, a lot of 115 lbs joint rail.  The car types were shifting increasingly in favor of long 89' flats and 86' auto parts cars that didn't like curves.  The DL&W side was in great shape due to a combination of high engineering standards, heavier rail and the line was generally in good shape (better than the Erie side) due to being lightly used for 10 years.  The DL&W could function as a through route while still serving Chrysler at Mt Pocono, the Reading and other local customers on the Bloom, coal at Portland and a host of other local customers.  As I said earlier, even some of the Ford business was moving over this route and then was handled west out of Croxton by 1975.  The EL spent a considerable amount on upgrading the Greenwood Lakes line.  It received stone ballast, a fair amount of new rail and of course ties (although due to presence of commuter trains, ties were not really an issue).  The higher horsepower diesels helped with the grades over the Pocono's (although given the philosophy of the day, helper were never eliminated at either Scranton (DL&W) or at Susquehanna (Erie)).

Long term, Conrail didn't really want either route.  It took them a while to talk Chrysler into leaving Mt Pocono.  Still, CR's efforts to "demarket" the DL&W were very deliberate.  Both routes served as a alternative as they (CR) rebuilt the routes that they considered primary (NYC Westshore, LV to Allentown, RDG, much of the PRR) but as the overhaul of those routes were completed, first the DL&W and then the Erie fell out of favor.  Thinking that Mahwah was here to stay, the State of New York spent money on bi-directional signals on the Delaware Division of the Erie in 1978.  However, in 1981, (with the loss of Ford Mahwah) CR was down to only one train each way a day.  The State of New York took them back to court and won.  As a result, in the recession year of 1982, CR had to restore 6 trains a day resulting in the reopening of the Erie main west of Hornell and the establishment of BUOL/OIBU, ELOI/OIEL and a pair of TV trains.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/17 09:19 by NYSWSD70M.