Eastern Railroad Discussion > EL plus NYC Big Four Route

In the 1970s, Erie Lackawanna as a means for trying to find a way to save itself and compete with a newly created Conrail proposed adding the NYC Big Four line to St. Louis to its system. This would have allowed the EL to have connections to the MKT, MoPac, SSW and BN. Marion Yard would be in the middle of the system at the junction points of its line to NY to the east and Chicago and St. Louis to the west. If the EL had been able to rid itself of the N.J. commuter trains, obtain tax relief and labor concessions, would adding the Big Four to the system create a viable EL Railroad to compete with Conrail, N&W and Chessie?

EL went into Chicago and interchanged with the Big Boys.

That is an interesting question. But how would E-L have the $$$$ to buy the NYC line even if they could convince the then ICC that it was good for competition and they had the money? All the railroads then were trying to rid themselves of the commuter train burden to society and other long haul passenger as a Government responsibility; not one freight railroads, which had, still under heaving pricing regulation compared to other modes, extreme difficulty competing with heavily subsidized trucking and barge lines. Yes, the new PC then did have former PRR lines to get to St Louis. But what PC ended up choosing, becoming Conrail, and now CSX uses, from Central Ohio to St Louis is ex-NYC to Terre Haute, IN then ex-PRR to E St Louis. Had EL, way back then, be able to convince shippers to support it and regulators to implement it, it still would not have survived long with the other things that are now RR history affecting railroads as the mergers happened and the routes would not be much different than now. Some do not want to hear it, but St Louis is less important than it was in the '60s & '70s due to the southern Illinois direct connections. It's all about miles and money it costs. A minor operational note, for EL to operate the ex-NYC St Louis line would require all those trains to reverse move a AC interlocking in Marion Ohio into and out of EL's Marion yard. Ceck maps. Maybe a few trains could be direct avoiding Marion.

i always felt the E-L and the Milw Rd should've merged to form the first transcontinental railroad ... i think the long distance run through non interchange cross country runs might've had a chance of saving both railroads ...

Add another if: If Hurricane Agnes hadn't devastated the EL property in 1972.

John

Amen to EL + MILW. The Big Four west of Marion, OH would have also helped.

I can't imagine any kind of merger that would have saved the MILW by this time. 

But it the overall notion of building two carriers instead of a single Conrail was seriously considered by the folks in charge. Adding the big 4 to the EL I hadn't heard of, but they probably looked at that too. 

Given what happened to the industries the EL served in Ohio and the northeast, I doubt it would have made all that much of a difference by 1990 or so. 

Lackawanna had a natural merger partner in Nickel Plate.

When N&W grabbed NKP, it was game over. Erie wasn't the right partner.

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EL served St. Louis in conjunction with N&W. They ran the "St. Louis Cannonball" (SLCB) if I remember right.

CPR_4000 Wrote:
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> EL served St. Louis in conjunction with N&W. They
> ran the "St. Louis Cannonball" (SLCB) if I
> remember right.


Friendly connections like that have a way of drying up because of mergers, though. E-L reached southern New England through its interchange with the New Haven at Maybrook, too, but once NH was merged into Penn Central, the Maybrook gateway withered and eventually died thanks to the (ahem) mysterious Poughkeepsie Bridge fire.

Hard to know what might have happened had E-L gotten one of the duplicate PRR vs NYC routes to St Louis, but I did not know they had bid for such access, so this has been an interesting discussion.

The only way this idea would have had even a slight chance of being successful is if the USRA pumped in equal amounts of cash as it did to Conrail. The entire infrastructure was already run into ground at that point and needed complete rebuilding,as was done with Conrail. And I really don't think the minds behind the USRA at the time really were interested in competition for their new venture,it was all about saving what was left of the rail industry in the northeast and they knew the best way to do so was to create a rail monopoly and shed unneeded mileage.

Tom

There was a proposal for a "two-system" east. One system would have been primarily Penn Central properties - minus the Big Four routes. The second would have been the "MARC-EL" (Mid Atlantic Rail Carriers - Erie Lackawana) system. It would have consisted of the EL, CNJ, RDG & LV + the Big Four routes - for access to St. Louis primarily. While this would have probably provided more than the token competition that the D&H did under the "One Conrail" plan that was chosen, enthusiasm waned after the realization that the Federal Gov't would have to support TWO railroads for what was estimated to be the remainder of the 20th Century at least. (yes eastern railroading was in that bad of shape)
With hindsight being 20/20, the best route for EL's survival would have been to re-organize on their own, but with the railroad worth more dead than alive, inclusion in Conrail - financially at least, was a better deal.

Too bad that TO member ShoreTower is no longer with us. He helped develop many of the USRA proposal alternatives.

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Transportation Secretary William Coleman very much wanted a two systems solution. He pushed very hard for the Chessie take over of the EL east of Sterling, OH, the Reading and the CNJ. He offered all of this for $55 million plus rehab money. Chessie couldn't close the deal with the clerk's union.

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CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EL served St. Louis in conjunction with N&W. They
> ran the "St. Louis Cannonball" (SLCB) if I
> remember right.


St. Louis Cannonball, New York Cannonball, East Coast Expediter, West Coast Expediter. All interchanged at Huntington, IN.

If that's the one I'm thinking of, the train made the connection at Huntington, Indiana.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EL served St. Louis in conjunction with N&W. They
> ran the "St. Louis Cannonball" (SLCB) if I
> remember right.

I still find the Santa Fe-Erie Lackawanna proposal interesting when the Santa Fe owned the TP&W. Reportedly, the Santa Fe considered rebuilding the old Eel River RR from Logansport to Newton (Laketon) Indiana where it crossed the EL to run trains on the EL to and from the East Coast, bypassing Chicago. Reportedly, CR twisted Santa Fe's arm not to do it and the right-of-way at the North Manchester college campus was also a challenge. This was reported here from someone who was involved with the planning. Ah, to have seen double-stack trains take this historic route, once part of the Wabash mainline! Did the N&W not own stock in the EL through a holding company? It would seem that such a new railroad would be in competition with N&W.

Reference the "monopoly" word used earlier in this thread, Conrail was indeed a bit heavy-handed with short lines and other connections. John Marino was a chief planner with the USRA that formed Conrail. Ironically, Conrail came back to haunt him with Hillsdale County that failed mostly because Conrail pulled out the rug by wiping out lucrative through rates (with deregulation). You can read about his career with other successful short lines and Rail America but virtually nothing on his tenure with the failed Hillsdale County. I sincerely wanted to discuss Hillsdale County with him but either he had no interest in discussing it with me or his health had already went downhill.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/17 17:13 by wabash2800.

There was a Conrail to ATSF connection via the TP&W in 1978.

The July 1978 Official Guide (page 432) shows TPW connections with the ATSF at Lomax and Eureka IL, and with Conrail at Logansport, Kentland, Sheldon, and Peoria.

Conrail (p 178) shows intermodal connections from Albany NY, Baltimore MD, and Allentown PA to Streator. Even one from Lacolle QC to Streator. But none of this shows up on the Conrail system map. The TP&W does show up on the AT&SF system map on page 170. Solid line through Gilman and Effner to Logansport.

There is someone that made this proposal into a "model reality". They made a Modern Erie Lackawanna that took over some of the Big Four lines and continued to operate into the 21st Century. It's a really nice layout and the guy even has a map of the entire railroad on his Facebook page for the railroad.

I myself have always believed that the EL could have, and should have, survived outside of Conrail. True, it may have cost more money, but I doubt it would be more than twice what it cost to run Conrail itself. The only thing that it would really cost would be the cost of the additional lines and locomotive facilities that would not have been abandoned like they were. For starters, the EL remaining separate probably would have prompted the retention of the Lehigh Valley main line to make up for the loss of the EL from the Conrail system. Outside of the aforementioned lines in this thread, there's not much else that might be added outside from a few branches in eastern New York, and the highly speculative possibility of the Delaware & Hudson being merged into the EL. The EL's locomotive Shops in Marion, OH probably would have stayed with the EL instead of being sold. But outside of that, nothing else would really change. You would still have the same number of employees going into the two companies as you did Conrail, the locomotive and freight car rosters going in would be the same, and the online customers that would not loose service on the abandoned lines that would not be abandoned would bring in additional revenue for the EL and Conrail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/17 04:25 by SD80MACfan.

In 1956 there was no need for four railroads to serve the NY metro to Buffalo route. In 1976, there wouldn't have been any reason to have three (LV EL CR) doing the same.

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