Eastern Railroad Discussion > Baiting Thieves?

In the early 80s I operated Amtrak's spotters program.  We were looking for:
- conductors pocketing their cash fares
- on-board service persons serving their own liquor or other financial schemes
- station personnel with financial schemes

In other words, we responded to information or complaints from management, passengers, etc. about bad employees.  Spotters were placed aboard the trains or stations to target the offending employees.  Occasionally we did get bad info, but usually the info was good. 

A sample of our work:  We caught a conductor, who made off with at least $30,000 in cash fares in one year.  A train attendant in the sleeping car who was passed out most of his trip.  A station agent running a business on the side while he worked.  They were teriminated from employment after a disciplinary hearing, in which our spotters testified.   Union Reps were usually not hostile to me, but recognized that the offending employee was a bad actor and should be off the payroll. 

I do not consider this work as baiting anyone.  These people stole from the company: dollars, time, service, etc.    The spotters simply watched these offenders do their work and then reported their findings. 





 

Nothing wrong with this.  We need more of it, perhaps, in some areas.

As I said in the other thread, you can't bait somebody into doing something if the urge is not already there.

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

Thats not baiting. Baiting would be purposely leaving a stack of cash on a random table.

Baiting would be placing a lot of high dollar items unguarded in an impoverished area in order to entice people to alter their behavior and steal. In other words resistance to temptation should prevent stealing but offering such a target may influence behaviors.

The problem many see is placing such bait specifically in impoverished predominantly minority locations then handing down heavy sentences for theft**. You can bet no such bait would be placed in wealthy or affluent neighborhoods even those with crime in them.


** for example wealthy bankers get no jail time for cheating hundreds of thousands of people out of millions of dollars, poisoning water supplies, yet theft of a $15 radio gets another person 10 years in jail.

The courts have thrown out the entrapment aspect of baiting many times. It isn't a viable legal argument in many cases.

It is clear, however, that the system skews in favor of somebody who steals ten million dollars, and away from somebody who steals $10.

Many Wells Fargo, IndyMac, CountryWide, Freddie Mac, Goldman, etc people should be in jail. That's a both parties PASS to criminals. Rich criminals.

Posted from Android

Agreed, Lackawanna 484. And the above are not examples of baiting, simply observing an infraction that was willfully done.

The real stealing is done on the very highest up management level among officers. They make decisions that benefit each other...not the public or stockholders

Basic oncept of our laws is that there is no excuse for illegal conduct. If this ever changes we're in deep trouble.

emd_mrs1 Wrote:
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> Baiting would be placing a lot of high dollar items unguarded in an impoverished area in order to entice people to alter their behavior and steal.

There is so much wrong with that line. First of all, the "bait" does not need to be "in an impoverished area" to be bait. Suggesting that it is only bait in such an area is displaying your own bias. Are you claiming that a "bait" trailer left in a predominantly white middle class neighborhood is no longer "bait"? I'd also argue that a person cutting the locks off of a trailer they do not own is not an "alter their behavior" situation. They were given the opportunity to make a choice. They freely chose to do the wrong thing. And finally, the high dollar items were not unguarded. They were being watched by police. So by your own definition they were not "bait".

The biggest problem I see in these neighborhoods is attitude. Sure, I want to see people stealing millions prosecuted but I am not ready to give in to the anarchy of ignoring the criminal organizations that operate at neighborhood level. And the rivalry between criminal organizations that lead to murders and assassinations, including the killing of innocent bystanders who live in those neighborhoods.
Is it really some millionaire’s fault that some banger decides not to keep the bullets in their gun? Is it the fault of the police? No. It is an attitude in the neighborhood that needs to be changed.
 

It's ridiculous to call it bait. For every one person the trailer catches, how many dozens of people walk past the same trailer never giving any thought to breaking in. If it were not from this trailer it would have been from somewhere else. Mabey a house. Mabey your house. If someone has the desire to steal, they are going to steal. Period. And noone can give a reason why they are walking around with something to cut a lock unless they are planning on using it to cut a lock. Mabey it's time to electrify trailer and boxcar latches.

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

Anybody who thinks that what NS did in Chicago is wrong is part of the growing problem with society...  Any railroad should be able to work in conjunction with police to try to protect their shipments.

There are plenty of honest people in every neighborhood - including poor neighborhoods - and those honest people deserve to have the criminal element removed from their neighborhoods to make it safer... (because it is that criminal element that continues to drag those neighborhoods down further reducing the businesses that want to locate there, the employment opportunities, and the prospects of that area getting better).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/18 22:54 by CSX602.

I would respectfully suggest that the first posting of this message is an interesting "side-bar",  appropriate for our interest in railroads and their operations. The rest of the posts are "social commentary" unrelated to anything having to do with our interest in trains and railroading.

you can make your own bait truck, bunch of guys do it on you tube

 

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The courts have thrown out the entrapment aspect
> of baiting many times. It isn't a viable legal
> argument in many cases.
>
> It is clear, however, that the system skews in
> favor of somebody who steals ten million dollars,
> and away from somebody who steals $10.
>
> Many Wells Fargo, IndyMac, CountryWide, Freddie
> Mac, Goldman, etc people should be in jail. That's
> a both parties PASS to criminals. Rich criminals.
>
> Posted from Android

Sometimes  rich criminals get put away, as in the former CEO of Worldcom, Bernie
Ebbers who received a 25 year sentence for fraudulent activities. I lost my job whent the
company went bankrupt due to corruption at the top.






 

Seems these bait cars and such are put in areas where those crimes occure not so much where they dont. Isnt that the way they should?  Same for fishing do people go where its hard to catch them or where its easy?
I agree on the rich getting off quite often with a slap on the hands but that comes from poor prosicution more than anything.  The top lawyers are not prosicutors as there able to make more money by being in private law firms.
  And it seems those who get caught usually have records dating back years and there list is long on the crimes they have commited.

superchief1944 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rest of the posts are "social commentary" unrelated to
> anything having to do with our interest in trains and railroading.

The conversation spun off of a longer conversation that did relate specifically to railroad operations (NS using bait trailers).

BTW: I would not consider the Amtrak actions decribed in this thread as "baiting". The crimes occured without any help from the authorities and observers. With the bait trailer, the authorities assisted in providing a target to be hit.

Heath_Tower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
(SNIP)
>
> Sometimes  rich criminals get put away, as in the
> former CEO of Worldcom, Bernie
> Ebbers who received a 25 year sentence for
> fraudulent activities. I lost my job whent the
> company went bankrupt due to corruption at the
> top.
>
>
No question there's corruption everywhere.  In corporations, in unions, in churches, in Chicago police department, etc.  People like Bernie Ebbers, Madoff, Skilling at Enron, are shining examples of deeply flawed and corrupt people, but that's a small sample. Lots more are on their yachts.

The 2008-2009 housing crisis was a broad based fraud involving thousands of people. And sticking taxpayers with the bill. People who flipped houses at excessive estimates and the appraisers who were in on the deal.  Banks that accepted the mortgages and sold them within a few days. The ratings agencies who held their noses and took the money for an AAA rating.  Goldman etc who packaged them and sold them to pension plans who didn't look or care.  When the house of cards came down, the taxpayer was left holding the bag in bailouts for Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, AIG, Freddie and Fannie, etc

 

My view has change.  My understanding is the truck was sitting on a  public  street.  I first thought it was on railroad property or in a yard.
I don't consider good policy.

However, I also don't believe in the moral equialence.  The Economic crisis or what eve else you want to compare it to is not NS problem. 
They are trying to deal with a particular problem.  I'd also note that part of this seems to trace back to trailers with guns being broken into
and the railroad not doing enough to secure their property.

Bob Jordan
 

robj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My view has change.  My understanding is the
> truck was sitting on a  public  street.  I
> first thought it was on railroad property or in a
> yard.
> I don't consider good policy.

So, a locked truck on a public street, apparently unattended is fair game for anybody with a bolt cutter?

>
> However, I also don't believe in the moral
> equialence.  The Economic crisis or what eve else
> you want to compare it to is not NS problem. 
> They are trying to deal with a particular
> problem.  I'd also note that part of this seems
> to trace back to trailers with guns being broken
> into
> and the railroad not doing enough to secure their
> property.
>
> Bob Jordan
>  

That digression might have been caused by an observation that rich criminals often escape with a slap.  While a poor guy, stealing Jimmy Choo shoes or Brownell weapons is thrown in prison.

Steal $10, go to jail.  Steal $10 million,  go everywhere

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> robj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My view has change.  My understanding is the
> > truck was sitting on a  public  street.  I
> > first thought it was on railroad property or in
> a
> > yard.
> > I don't consider good policy.
>
> So, a locked truck on a public street, apparently
> unattended is fair game for anybody with a bolt
> cutter?
>
> >
> > However, I also don't believe in the moral
> > equialence.  The Economic crisis or what eve
> else
> > you want to compare it to is not NS problem. 
> > They are trying to deal with a particular
> > problem.  I'd also note that part of this
> seems
> > to trace back to trailers with guns being
> broken
> > into
> > and the railroad not doing enough to secure
> their
> > property.
> >
> > Bob Jordan
> >  
>
> That digression might have been caused by an
> observation that rich criminals often escape with
> a slap.  While a poor guy, stealing Jimmy Choo
> shoes or Brownell weapons is thrown in prison.
>
> Steal $10, go to jail.  Steal $10 million,  go
> everywhere

I didn't say any trailer should be fair game. 
1) I don't think this type of operation is going to snag the gang types, those capable of large scale thefts on a regular basis,
    more likely to snag someone of less sophistication, possibly impaired or lacking basic judgements(trying to be careful).

2) Didn't say the justice system is fair.  You can always find a greater crime unpunished to justify a lesser but doesn't help NS.

Bob



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/18 11:51 by robj.