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Eastern Railroad Discussion > NS plans for Southern Tier?


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Date: 05/15/19 08:22
NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: CPR_4000

Back when NS was looking for public money to help build the new Portageville bridge, they published a document that described all sorts of wonderful things they'd do if the new bridge was built, which included additional traffic to NJ via Port Jervis. AFAIK the Susquehanna is still the only user east of Binghamton. Was NS just blowing smoke, or what?



Date: 05/15/19 08:31
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: Lackawanna484

I figured they would sucker NY state iinto granting money so NS could haul more frac sand into the area.  To expand the exploration and production footprint just over the line in Pennsylvania.  Sand trains can be very heavy.

NY doesn't allow frac operations on its side of the border



Date: 05/15/19 08:59
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: stevelv

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NY doesn't allow frac operations on its side of
> the border

Yes, and this doesn't sit well with many residents of perennially economically depressed upstate NY.  This includes my Aunt who owns some acreage in Central NY with oil reserves on her property.



Date: 05/15/19 10:10
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: Lackawanna484

stevelv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NY doesn't allow frac operations on its side of
> > the border
>
> Yes, and this doesn't sit well with many residents
> of perennially economically depressed upstate
> NY.  This includes my Aunt who owns some acreage
> in Central NY with oil reserves on her property.

The state is always finding new holes in which to dump taxpayer money to create any jobs Upstate.  Any jobs at all.

While it prohibits a huge  opportunity that generates jobs a mile away, in PA.  NS hauls an enormous amount of sand, pipe, etc to the Southern Tier..

With modern, comprehensive rules they can have their quality of water and a supply of oil and natural gas, providing high paying jobs for local residents.  And, sustained work for NS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/19 13:00 by Lackawanna484.



Date: 05/15/19 10:35
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: Gonut1

NS traffic to the Delaware-Lackawanna is now brought in across the Southern Tier and interchanged at Tayler Yard, Scranton. Previously it was brought across Pennsylvania and intervhanged at Portland, PA via Allentown Yard. This was one of the "benefits" touted for the new Portage Bridge traffic. 
Of course railfans preferred the Portland turn over the Pocono Mountains a much more interesting operation.
Gonut



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/19 12:24 by Gonut1.



Date: 05/15/19 10:38
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: NYSWSD70M

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back when NS was looking for public money to help
> build the new Portageville bridge, they published
> a document that described all sorts of wonderful
> things they'd do if the new bridge was built,
> which included additional traffic to NJ via Port
> Jervis. AFAIK the Susquehanna is still the only
> user east of Binghamton. Was NS just blowing
> smoke, or what?

Keep in mind, the amount of NY State money was a small percentage of the cost of the bridge. The main reason for the state participation in the project was to help with the environmental and other issues involved in building the bridge in a state park.

Posted from Android



Date: 05/15/19 11:10
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: Lackawanna484

Gonut1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NS traffic to the Delaware-Lackawanna is now
> brought in across the Southern Tier and
> interchanged at Tayler Yard, Scranton. Previously
> it was brought across Pennsylvania and
> intervhanged at Portland, PA via Allentown Yard.
> This was one of the "benefits" touted for the new
> Portage Bridge traffic. 
> Of course railfans preferred the Portland turn
> over the Pocovo Mountains a much more interesting
> operation.
> Gonut

Yes.

D-L is running an enormous amount of business up on the old Jefferson line into Carbondale, etc.  Lot of frac supplies.

NS also drops an impressive amount of supplies at Gang Mills / Corning, Sayre, etc from what I've observed



Date: 05/15/19 12:41
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: CPR_4000

NYSWSD70M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Keep in mind, the amount of NY State money was a
> small percentage of the cost of the bridge.

That's certainly true, but nevertheless the Delaware Division hasn't seen the resurgence as a through route to NJ that NS had forecast. It's still only used by the Susquehanna a couple times a week.



Date: 05/15/19 12:48
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: PRR1361

If they can straighten out the kinks in the former D&H south of Scranton, it will provide an excellent reliever route for Harrisburg-Chicago intermodal traffic, via the ex-Nickel Plate, etc.



Date: 05/15/19 12:57
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: NYSWSD70M

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NYSWSD70M Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Keep in mind, the amount of NY State money was
> a
> > small percentage of the cost of the bridge.
>
> That's certainly true, but nevertheless the
> Delaware Division hasn't seen the resurgence as a
> through route to NJ that NS had forecast. It's
> still only used by the Susquehanna a couple times
> a week.

Which was not what I was adding commentary too.

However, the traffic that is/was planned for that routing had to do with the inland port in Buffalo. The NY/NJ Port Authority made an announcement about the inland port a few weeks ago.

Posted from Android



Date: 05/15/19 15:17
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: pal77

The problem with the Tier to NJ is it’s being dispatched east of Port Jervis by NJT the line is single track and quite busy with tightly defined windows for freight. If you miss the window your stuck till the next which sometimes is hours away. For NYSW not a big deal they aren’t exactly moving priority freight but for NS that would be different story. Didn’t know about the inland port should be interesting how this plays out. Might be LEHL to Scranton and Binghamton then Tier to Buffalo.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 05/15/19 15:30
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: Lackawanna484




Date: 05/16/19 03:43
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: JPB

AFAIK, the two pending/proposed upstate NY "inland port" developments at Syracuse and Buffalo were not instigated by either CSX or NS but were pushed by local upstate NY shipper groups. CSX currently offers 19 hour cut-off to availabilty private container and trailer service originating at N Bergen, NJ (ie not on dock at Newark or Elizabeth) to Syracuse. CSX already offers daily international container service with 43.5 hour cut-off to availability from Elizabeth or Newark marine terminals to Seneca Yard in Buffalo (attachment 1).

And relevant to this thread, NS today offers 5 day/week 98 hour (!!!!) international container service from Elizabeth Marine Terminal to Buffalo (attachment 2). 

While these service lanes do not represent extensions of the NJ port ops in upstate NY as the shipper groups are pushing, they do indicate that both CSX and NS have stuck their toes in the water although it's tough to take NS service seriously with a 4 day delivery schedule for 400 miles as a serious alternative to draying by truck. CSX is trying a bit harder with < 2 day international container delivery service in this lane. 

Net: I'm guessing neither NS or CSX consider Port of NJ to upstate NY international container service a lucrative market opportunity v. trucking so someone else has to come up with the infrastructure $.

OTOH, NS has done a pretty good job of developing business along the Southern Tier between Binghamton and Buffalo: in addition to interchange traffic with several shortlines, there are two new sidings installed with one at Gainesville NY near Silver Springs (ag products transload) and one at Waverly to deliver used autos to State Line Auto Auction. NS is installing PTC on the Tier from Buffalo to Silver Springs as required by annual tonnage threshold of 15M tons on a line with no passenger train service (The Silver Springs-Buffalo segment features some sort of haulage rights used by G&W for Rochester & Southern and Buffalo & Pittsburgh interchange (lots of rock salt coming from the mine served by the original G&W RR).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/19 04:01 by JPB.






Date: 05/16/19 07:49
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: goneon66

i have heard the term "southern tier" before but i never knew what it meant.  where does the southern tier start and where does it end?  also, does anybody know what the crew districts are on the n.s.'s southern tier?

thanks for any info............

66



Date: 05/16/19 08:00
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: toledopatch

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i have heard the term "southern tier" before but i
> never knew what it meant.  where does the
> southern tier start and where does it end?  also,
> does anybody know what the crew districts are on
> the n.s.'s southern tier?

Under Conrail, the Southern Tier Line was the ex-Erie main between Suffern, N.Y., and Hornell, N.Y., and the ex-Erie secondary main from Hornell to Buffalo. NS only operates the portion between Binghamton and Buffalo, with the old "Delaware Division" between Binghamton and Port Jervis under long-term lease to Central New York Railroad, which is a Susquehanna paper railroad. Most NS trains run with Buffalo-Binghamton crews; I'm not sure if there's still a shorter pool between Gang Mills and Buffalo as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/19 11:26 by toledopatch.



Date: 05/16/19 08:16
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: goneon66

very interesting.  thanks..........

66



Date: 05/16/19 09:18
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: cjvrr

Takes its name from the lower counties in NY State from Binghamton west to the western tip of the state.  That is considered the "Southern Tier" of New York.

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i have heard the term "southern tier" before but i
> never knew what it meant.  where does the
> southern tier start and where does it end?  also,
> does anybody know what the crew districts are on
> the n.s.'s southern tier?
>
> thanks for any info............
>
> 66



Date: 05/16/19 16:58
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: joemvcnj

Basically Binghamton to thw northern Pennsylvania panhandle border, along route NY 17 / I-86 and NY 417 (the old 17). 



Date: 05/16/19 18:27
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: Lackawanna484

44 hours from Portside to the Buffalo Terminal!  That will show those canal boat operators!

Nine miles an hour (350 miles / 44 hours) doesn't strike me as an exceptionally impressive result

 



Date: 05/17/19 11:16
Re: NS plans for Southern Tier?
Author: jjd0618psd

What about running the NS trains down to Campbell Hall then down the Hudson Secondary to the NYS&W as they did years ago.  There is a lot of open time between Port Jervis and Campbell Hall.  Years back they ran double stacks down this route.  And the NYS&W is partially owned by the NS & CSX to the best of my knowledge.  The only trains that go over the Hudson Secondary are the East Penn that serve the industries between Campbell Hall and Warwick on a daily basis The NYS&W which operates 3 trains a week in each direction.  NJ Trainsit has talked about increasing yard space in Campbell Hall to support starting trains from that location.  Maybe some Heritage units could head down that way someday. (ha ha wishful thinking)



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