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Eastern Railroad Discussion > PTC NS Pittsburgh Line


Date: 11/09/19 05:45
PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: texchief1

Shouldn't PTC stop on any red whether it is a restricting or absolute?  It can't sense a train when it is going 20 mph on restricting?  Seems kind of dumb to me.

Randy Lundgren
Elgin, TX



Date: 11/09/19 05:57
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: gbmott

Yes, PTC will stop a train at an absolute signal displaying STOP.  No, it will not stop a train at a signal displaying RESTRICTING, nor should it, so long as the train's speed is down to 20/15 when passing the signal. Yes, it knows if a train is operating at Restricted Speed and exceeds 20mph (or 15mph depending on the railroad) and will enforce it.  None of this is dumb.

Gordon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/19 06:00 by gbmott.



Date: 11/09/19 08:14
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: NKP715

A lot of people don't seem to understand the Restricting Rule.  It goes into effect when a
Restricting Signal is received, either by lineside signal or cab signal.  The rule states that train must
be operated at a speed to enable stopping within half the range of vision of another train, an obstruction, 
or switch not properly lined, but not to exceed 15 or 20 (depending on the railroad's rule) mph.

Key part of the rule is the half of range of vision.  If a movement is going around a curve, for
example, and the engineer can see 1500 feet, he/she has to operate at a speed that would
permit stopping in 750 feet.

On straight track, given good visibility, train could potentially be operated at the 15 or 20 mph,
if the engineer feels he/she can comply with the range of vision.

This derailment appears (of course final answer is after investigation complete) to be either
a signal malfunction or a rules violation.

As stated in the previous post, PTC (if it was in effect here and functioning properly) is not
designed or capable of enforcing the range of vision portion.



Date: 11/09/19 09:20
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: texchief1

Wonder if PTC sends out an audible warning on anything other than clear to make sure the engineer is awake?  Seems like it would,even on a yellow.

Does anybody know if PTC sends out an audible warning if engineer has not reduced speed?

THANKS.

Randy Lundgren
Elgin, TX


 



Date: 11/09/19 09:24
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: bioyans

texchief1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wonder if PTC sends out an audible warning on
> anything other than clear to make sure the
> engineer is awake?  Seems like it would,even on a
> yellow.
>
> Does anybody know if PTC sends out an audible
> warning if engineer has not reduced speed?
>
> THANKS.

PTC will make an audible alert, a prescribed distance from an upcoming speed change or required stop. The amount of time it provides an alert, before initiating enforcement, depends on the train's consist and speed.

It is my understanding that PTC was not yet activated at the location where the collision took place.

Posted from Android



Date: 11/09/19 09:47
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: Juniata

I’m reasonably sure PTC was cut in through this area within the past 3-4 months as that coincided with removal of the intermediate wayside signals.

No idea if it was functioning properly yesterday.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 11/09/19 10:17
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: bioyans

Juniata Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m reasonably sure PTC was cut in through this
> area within the past 3-4 months as that coincided
> with removal of the intermediate wayside signals.
>
> No idea if it was functioning properly yesterday.

The hardware is being installed, as the new signals are being phased in. To the best of my knowledge, from sources who work that territory, the PTC portion has not been activated yet.

Posted from Android



Date: 11/09/19 10:19
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: Juniata

bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Juniata Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I’m reasonably sure PTC was cut in through
> this
> > area within the past 3-4 months as that
> coincided
> > with removal of the intermediate wayside
> signals.
> >
> > No idea if it was functioning properly
> yesterday.
>
> The hardware is being installed, as the new
> signals are being phased in. To the best of my
> knowledge, from sources who work that territory,
> the PTC portion has not been activated yet.
>
> Posted from Android

Ok; thanks for the clarification!

Posted from iPhone



Date: 11/09/19 10:46
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: shadetree

The fact is that PTC won't prevent a rear ender. The system has no idea where other trains are. It only sees track circuits.

Eng.Shadetree

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/19 10:47 by shadetree.



Date: 11/09/19 16:57
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: bioyans

shadetree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact is that PTC won't prevent a rear ender.
> The system has no idea where other trains are. It
> only sees track circuits.
>
> Eng.Shadetree

The only caveat I would add, is that it won't stop ALL rear end collisions. If the following train was exceeding 20 MPH, with the typical track circuit arrangements found in cab signal territory, PTC would have intervened and stopped the train before a collision.

Train speed of 20 MPH, or below, and all bets are off.



Date: 11/09/19 18:26
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: HotWater

bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> shadetree Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The fact is that PTC won't prevent a rear ender.
>
> > The system has no idea where other trains are.
> It
> > only sees track circuits.
> >
> > Eng.Shadetree
>
> The only caveat I would add, is that it won't stop
> ALL rear end collisions. If the following train
> was exceeding 20 MPH, with the typical track
> circuit arrangements found in cab signal
> territory, PTC would have intervened and stopped
> the train before a collision.
>
> Train speed of 20 MPH, or below, and all bets are
> off.

Correct. Reportedly the event recorder indicated that the impact speed was 16 MPH. Thus,,,,,,,,,,,,it was operator error!!!!!



Date: 11/10/19 11:56
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: edbac333

What is the advantage of allowing a train past a signal into an occupied block to begin with? What operating advantage is there to the signal being restricting instead of absolute stop when the block ahead is occupied?
 I am not asking to be a smart a___ , just for my own understanding. Thanks in advance.



Date: 11/10/19 14:06
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: bioyans

edbac333 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the advantage of allowing a train past a
> signal into an occupied block to begin with? What
> operating advantage is there to the signal being
> restricting instead of absolute stop when the
> block ahead is occupied?
>  I am not asking to be a smart a___ , just for my
> own understanding. Thanks in advance.

On single track with considerable distances between passing sidings, it allows for meets between more than 2 trains. As long as all the trains in one direction fit between the signals on the main/siding at a given spot, you can have 3, 4, or more trains pass at one location, rather than having them all spread out and stopping frequently for meets.

Posted from Android



Date: 11/10/19 18:33
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: halfmoonharold

edbac333 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the advantage of allowing a train past a
> signal into an occupied block to begin with? What
> operating advantage is there to the signal being
> restricting instead of absolute stop when the
> block ahead is occupied?
>  I am not asking to be a smart a___ , just for my
> own understanding. Thanks in advance.

It allows the train crew more leeway on where they want to stop their train, assuming a stopped train ahead. They may want to position their train between road crossings, or leave more room for a following move to do the same. Or to stop in a spot with a more favorable grade for starting up. Since this was multiple-track territory, these factors may be likely reasons for passing the signal.



Date: 11/10/19 19:09
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: ExSPCondr

> -----
> > What is the advantage of allowing a train past
> a
> > signal into an occupied block to begin with?
> What
> > operating advantage is there to the signal
> being
> > restricting instead of absolute stop when the
> > block ahead is occupied?
> >  I am not asking to be a smart a___ , just for
> my
> > own understanding. Thanks in advance.
>
> On single track with considerable distances
> between passing sidings, it allows for meets
> between more than 2 trains. As long as all the
> trains in one direction fit between the signals on
> the main/siding at a given spot, you can have 3,
> 4, or more trains pass at one location, rather
> than having them all spread out and stopping
> frequently for meets.
>
The above is not a correct answer!  The signals at control points are 'ABSOLUTE.'  A red signal at a control point has nothing on its mast, meaning it is an absolute signal, and cannot be passed without the dispatcher or interlocking operator's permission, and always, only after stopping.  The INTERMEDIATE signals between control points have a sign on them with a number, usually close to the milepost, and are not under the dispatcher's direct control.  These are the Automatic Block Signals that can be passed at restricted speed if the railroad's rules allow it.

Restricted speed on the SP was: A speed which will permit stopping within half the range of vision, AND short of train, engine, railroad car, switch or derail not properly lined, looking out for broken rail, not exceeding 20 MPH.
G  



Date: 11/10/19 19:44
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: bioyans

ExSPCondr Wrote:
--------------------------------
> The above is not a correct answer!  The signals
> at control points are 'ABSOLUTE.'  A red signal
> at a control point has nothing on its mast,
> meaning it is an absolute signal, and cannot be
> passed without the dispatcher or interlocking
> operator's permission, and always, only after
> stopping.  The INTERMEDIATE signals between
> control points have a sign on them with a number,
> usually close to the milepost, and are not under
> the dispatcher's direct control.  These are the
> Automatic Block Signals that can be passed at
> restricted speed if the railroad's rules allow
> it.
>
> Restricted speed on the SP was: A speed which will
> permit stopping within half the range of vision,
> AND short of train, engine, railroad car, switch
> or derail not properly lined, looking out for
> broken rail, not exceeding 20 MPH.
> G  

Well, I guess you never got a RESTRICTING at an absolute signal, to close in on a train ahead ... because in my 25+ years of operating trains for two different Class 1's, I sure have. MANY. TIMES.

Yes, even with PTC.

Maybe, instead of ranting, you should go back and re-read the question I answered. The poster asked why there would be instances where one would need to proceed into an occupied block.

But, then again, maybe me meeting 3 westbound trains, stacked on 4 miles of double track, with the middle train straddling the lone automatic between the two absolute signals, so my eastbound UPS train could continue unimpeded, must have been a hallucination. I could have sworn it only happened two days ago.

Oh, and I can guarantee you that the second two both got RESTRICTING indications. One on the automatic with a number plate, and the other on the absolute signal via color light indication. Either way, the rules governing the movement of those two trains were exactly the same.

Posted from Android



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/19 20:10 by bioyans.



Date: 11/10/19 20:17
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: portlander

edbac333 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the advantage of allowing a train past a
> signal into an occupied block to begin with? What
> operating advantage is there to the signal being
> restricting instead of absolute stop when the
> block ahead is occupied?
>  I am not asking to be a smart a___ , just for my
> own understanding. Thanks in advance.

Not mentioned yet and possibly the most important reason, is to allow trains to operate through a signal outage or an unidentified block occupancy.



Date: 11/11/19 06:32
Re: PTC NS Pittsburgh Line
Author: Foamductor

This is what cracks me up about this forum. You have guys who think something has to be the same EVERYWHERE because it was that way where they worked/lived/railfanned. (all parties are guilty of this). 

Bioyans is right here. Some railroads you CAN get a restricting into an occupied block at a absolute signal. In fact its very common on the eastern railroads (N&W is the exception here, that system generally doesn't give a restricting at absolutes).  Around here, typically the signal will upgrade from stop to restricting as soon as the rear end of the train ahead has cleared the "OS". 

In the case here, cab signals without intermediate waysides. You NEED to get your train speed down as soon as the cab signals go to restricting.  There are boxes every so many miles where the blocks end and start, typically you will have one block of restricting in the cab before a stop signal/occupied block. Some guys call me conservative, but I typically get down under 20MPH with approach in the cab. Restricting, I'm generally crawling. 

bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ExSPCondr Wrote:
> --------------------------------
> > The above is not a correct answer!  The
> signals
> > at control points are 'ABSOLUTE.'  A red
> signal
> > at a control point has nothing on its mast,
> > meaning it is an absolute signal, and cannot be
> > passed without the dispatcher or interlocking
> > operator's permission, and always, only after
> > stopping.  The INTERMEDIATE signals between
> > control points have a sign on them with a
> number,
> > usually close to the milepost, and are not
> under
> > the dispatcher's direct control.  These are
> the
> > Automatic Block Signals that can be passed at
> > restricted speed if the railroad's rules allow
> > it.
> >
> > Restricted speed on the SP was: A speed which
> will
> > permit stopping within half the range of
> vision,
> > AND short of train, engine, railroad car,
> switch
> > or derail not properly lined, looking out for
> > broken rail, not exceeding 20 MPH.
> > G  
>
> Well, I guess you never got a RESTRICTING at an
> absolute signal, to close in on a train ahead ...
> because in my 25+ years of operating trains for
> two different Class 1's, I sure have. MANY.
> TIMES.
>
> Yes, even with PTC.
>
> Maybe, instead of ranting, you should go back and
> re-read the question I answered. The poster asked
> why there would be instances where one would need
> to proceed into an occupied block.
>
> But, then again, maybe me meeting 3 westbound
> trains, stacked on 4 miles of double track, with
> the middle train straddling the lone automatic
> between the two absolute signals, so my eastbound
> UPS train could continue unimpeded, must have been
> a hallucination. I could have sworn it only
> happened two days ago.
>
> Oh, and I can guarantee you that the second two
> both got RESTRICTING indications. One on the
> automatic with a number plate, and the other on
> the absolute signal via color light indication.
> Either way, the rules governing the movement of
> those two trains were exactly the same.
>
> Posted from Android



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