Eastern Railroad Discussion > OH: GM+LG Chem to launch battery factory near Lordstown

Various newswires are reporting that General Motors and South Korean LG Chemicals will build a battery factory near Lordstown OH.  The factory will provide batteries for GM's growing electric car offerings. It will be a UAW union shop, with wages expected in the $15 - $17 range.

The GM Lordstown assembly plant was sold to a truck making venture, but this new operation is expected to be nearby. The old location had good rail access.  Does anyone know how much rail access is used in a battery factory?

The automotive battery factories in Holland, MI require zero rail access.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> ...  Does anyone know how much rail
> access is used in a battery factory?

I am curious about that, too. My guess is not much.

I also wonder whether the whole battery thing may turn into a bust. Somehow the initial and final economic/environmental costs seem to get ignored, not to mention where does the electricity come from in the first place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/19 07:14 by ts1457.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> I also wonder whether the whole battery thing may
> turn into a bust. Somehow the initial and final
> economic/environmental costs seem to get ignored,
> not to mention where does the electricity come
> from in the first place.

I would suggest that the gazillions the automakers here and abroad are investing in electric technology suggest that, in the long run, battery-powered vehicles are going to be anything but a bust.

Art House

aehouse Wrote:
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> I would suggest that the gazillions the automakers
> here and abroad are investing in electric
> technology suggest that, in the long run,
> battery-powered vehicles are going to be anything
> but a bust.

Point taken, but I still wonder.

The lower income people are likely to suffer if the battery cars have a higher initial cost than internal combustion. I doubt that "beater" electric vehicles will be available to help them with their transportation needs.

And then, there is the cost to replace them after 4-5 years.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also wonder whether the whole battery thing may
> turn into a bust. Somehow the initial and final
> economic/environmental costs seem to get ignored,
> not to mention where does the electricity come
> from in the first place.

All I can tell you is I like my hybrid electric car and I am saving $1500 a year in gas on it at the price of about $250 in electricity - the car gets around 100 mpg average.  In 10 years, the savings in fuel will have paid half the price of the car.  I don't have any interest in an all electric car unless they develop mythical super batteries that can charge in 5 or 10 minutes, but the hybrid electric is great and can go anywhere.  So I doubt there will be a bust, but I do wonder if there is a real future for full electric vehicles, because I don't see any progress at all on the charging issue and I kind of doubt any progress will ever happen because of physical limits.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I can tell you is I like my hybrid electric
> car and I am saving $1500 a year in gas on it at
> the price of about $250 in electricity - the car
> gets around 100 mpg average.  In 10 years, the
> savings in fuel will have paid half the price of
> the car.  I don't have any interest in an all
> electric car unless they develop mythical super
> batteries that can charge in 5 or 10 minutes, but
> the hybrid electric is great and can go
> anywhere.  So I doubt there will be a bust, but I
> do wonder if there is a real future for full
> electric vehicles, because I don't see any
> progress at all on the charging issue and I kind
> of doubt any progress will ever happen because of
> physical limits.

Thanks for your viewpoint. I have a friend who also sings praises for his hybrid, so I am more open-minded about them. I do have doubts about full battery vehicles outside of local transportation. 

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...  Does anyone know how much rail
> > access is used in a battery factory?
>
> I am curious about that, too. My guess is not
> much.
>
> I also wonder whether the whole battery thing may
> turn into a bust. Somehow the initial and final
> economic/environmental costs seem to get ignored,
> not to mention where does the electricity come
> from in the first place.

Fossil fueled trucks with generators ran by more fossil fuel.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/19 11:17 by farmer.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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>Does anyone know how much rail access is used in a battery factory?

The Tesla battery plant (aka the 'Gigafactory') in Clark NV does not currently have rail access.

gcw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >Does anyone know how much rail access is used in
> a battery factory?
>
> The Tesla battery plant (aka the 'Gigafactory') in
> Clark NV does not currently have rail access.

Maybe GM will do differently? Tesla is a company that ripped out the UP spur when UP wouldn't low-ball rates and then ended up trucking finished cars to a ramp when they could have just been loaded at the factory. Beyond that, their method of operation has a history of being prone to sudden shifts and snafus, so I wouldn't imagine they could handle rail anyway for factory to factory shipments. (Particularly with how sluggish it would be.)

Waiting for a hybrid Chevy silverado. My dream truck.

Posted from Android

Maybe these plants don't need rail (i.e. boxcar) access --  in this day of containers and stack trains.  At leaat, I hope this is the case.

I will get a full electric car when they can run on a 9 volt battery for year!!!!!

Out here in "dem dar hills" I couldn't fan for a day on any of the current ranges available for less than
$100K. Couldn't have worked my previous corporate position either, gonna be a while before the battery
ops get caught up with both reality and anything but a short commute.

Out

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> abyler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All I can tell you is I like my hybrid electric
> > car and I am saving $1500 a year in gas on it
> at
> > the price of about $250 in electricity - the
> car
> > gets around 100 mpg average.  In 10 years, the
> > savings in fuel will have paid half the price
> of
> > the car.  I don't have any interest in an all
> > electric car unless they develop mythical super
> > batteries that can charge in 5 or 10 minutes,
> but
> > the hybrid electric is great and can go
> > anywhere.  So I doubt there will be a bust, but
> I
> > do wonder if there is a real future for full
> > electric vehicles, because I don't see any
> > progress at all on the charging issue and I
> kind
> > of doubt any progress will ever happen because
> of
> > physical limits.
>
> Thanks for your viewpoint. I have a friend who
> also sings praises for his hybrid, so I am more
> open-minded about them. I do have doubts about
> full battery vehicles outside of local
> transportation.

I also have some serious questions about the viability of the domestic auto industry itself, not just the battery-powered car concerns. This will have a bigger impact on railroads. 

EL3600 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (SNIP)
>
> I also have some serious questions about the
> viability of the domestic auto industry itself,
> not just the battery-powered car concerns. This
> will have a bigger impact on railroads. 


There are a lot of electric truck initiatives underway. I'm amazed at the growth in efficiency for solar electric panels.

Change is underway...

Posted from Android

Just before Thanksgiving, the Chairman of Honda said that the ICE will be the power source for vehicles for the foreseeable future and maybe forever. I am sure the data he is looking at is pretty good.

Posted from Android

NYSWSD70M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just before Thanksgiving, the Chairman of Honda
> said that the ICE will be the power source for
> vehicles for the foreseeable future and maybe
> forever. I am sure the data he is looking at is
> pretty good.
>
> Posted from Android

He may be right. Or not.

Honda is a laggard in the movement toward electric powered vehicles. Perhaps by choice.  Toyota, on the other hand, has significant investment in both electric and hydrogen fuel cell technology. The dichotomy has been noted, and many investors have debated the situation.

Not unlike the situation of EMD, Alco, and Baldwin in the late 1930s into the late 1940s. There was a strong and very well founded belief that the steam engine could be perfected, and far out perform any diesel locomotive. They were absolutely right, until they weren't.

This thread has morphed to the future of electric cars. Truth is, the war between eletric and the ICE Is already over, just as it was in the late 1930s when diesels started making inroads against steam power. Battery tech over the last 10 years has made large strides, and costs are coming down as these new battery plants come online. There is a literal wave of new products coming that will continue the transformation. And not just Tesla. Ford has been literally blown away by all the interest in their new Mustang Mach, even despite the horribly unfortunate name. Ford's electric F150 is coming too. And many more are to follow,, inlcluding VW/Audi, BMW, and Hyundai. Tesla made almost 400K cars last year, the vast marjority of which were Model 3s. Ask BMW and Audi what that's done to car sales of their mainstay 3 series and A4/5 models respectively. 

Having driven a friend's Tesla 3, the car feels utterly normal. Well, despite the immense amount of torque available from zero all the way up to seriously-illegal speeds. He commutes ~50 miles a day. His cost to charge the car? 30 dollars a month; roughtly half the cost of a single tank of gas at current prices in Seattle. Range for his daily commute is total non issue. And he's done road trips too, using the network of Tesla superchargers. While less optimal here, it's definitely practical enough. I see Teslas rolling around the wilds of Montana and elsewhere, their owners obviously capable of a little route planning. 

And this is with today's tech. As batteries get smaller and more efficient, you'll be able to squeeze more capacity in a car. The idea of a car with a 1000-mile range isn't that far-fetched. That's further than 98% of the population can physically drive during the course of a day. It's coming, despite all the FUD out there about the impending change. It's only a matter of when, not if.... 

Rick Selby
Redmond, WA
Pacific Northwest RPM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/19 17:06 by RAS.