Eastern Railroad Discussion > unions ordered to bargain on crew consist

https://www.railwayage.com/freight/rail-union-ordered-to-bargain-on-crew-consist/

This may be escalated to a higher court......

It already looks like the higher court vs several state courts. It's some interstate commerce and some intrastate
commerce, could generate some interesting outcomes.

Out

My question is how many of these judges would want to fly in an airplane with only one pilot?  For that matter it is a proven fact that a pilot? can control a drone from a half a world away. I can't wait for this new and improves technology to be implememted on the airlines. Just think, a remote operator in a central location could operate several planes or trains at once. Look how much that would raise the CEO and his worthless brother in law's salary. 

engineerinvirginia Wrote:
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> This may be escalated to a higher court......

As of this morning, it has been.

And as you fly the system is Hacked , and way you go , 

wmbrakeman Wrote:
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> And as you fly the system is Hacked , and way you
> go , 

Those clowns at Boeing can't even the the 737 MAX off the ground yet.   That whole plane should be junked....

The postion of the companies are that two man crews are not safer.  Nevermind that there isn't a significant amount of one man crews to compare to.  Here's the deal.  You can't measure something that doesn't happen.  EVERY incident that doesn't happen makes no wave in the pool.   A missed slow order that was caught and complied with doesn't make a ripple. 

People don't really understand.  Now with PTC and PSR the stress level at the crew level is off the chart.  Really off the chart for a student trying to learn the craft.  Imagine driving your car and losing your job for speeding a couple mph over the limit.  Are you perfect?  WE must be everyday all day.

The second crewmember makes things go so much better and the RR's are clueless to this.

Eng.Shadetree

This debate can be resolved with data, but I have never seen any presented.  Without even getting into workload studies there are all manner of situations where a second preson saves a while lot of time.  Setting out cars, cutting a crossing, applying handbrakes, setting retainers, fixing a mechanical issue, etc, etc.  The railroads should know how often this happens.  The impact is either low, at which point one OPTO won't really matter, or it is significant, which implies long term risk to shareholders OR costs being applied to shippers.

very simple, railroad management is insane, people hired out collage, sometimes off the street, offered unlimited bonuses, to slash cost without understanding the entire operation, only their little piece of the puzzle, they will lie and cheat, screw the crews to get their desired results/figures, the old saying is true, liars will figure, and figures will lie. everybody below them is a target of opportunity, kind of sounds like war, well it is, men are now being pushed to the limits, the industry wide issue of fatigue, and they want to cut more, railroads are not factory's, you walk in and push a button and produce a predictable x-number of widgets per hour per person. PSR is a joke, the men understand consistent regular service to customers, management has lost their way, close down a hump yard and flat switch, come out with me on a night, sleeting, wind blowing about 15 mph, icy switch stands, iced over hand rails, switches plugging up, with a 19 minute lunch break, which the manager on duty will time you by a kitchen egg timer, at 20 minutes, you had better be moving cars seen it done it, i hope their is room in hell, with hunter harrison where they can take their money and can never spend it, signed a railroad veteran

I've said it here before and I'll say it again:

Trains need 2 people in the cab on class one railroads. Period.

I have over 35000 hrs of throttle and seat time. I think I know what I need to do my job. I don't care what some chump who got a degree doing a time study says. There are times I sit down and have at least 9 solid hours of running to do because they've loaded my train to it's absolute max. Trip optimizer is trying to save fuel and runs 10-15 mph UNDER the speed limit. I don't get a chance to go to the bathroom. I'm not allowed breaks to eat. This is the reality on the railroads today. Computers can not replace humans when you literally have thousands of variables on a railroad.

Imagine driving 10-12 hrs with no radio, music, cell phone, companionship, etc. All while having a camera pointed in your face waiting on you to break a trivial rule so they can use it to build a case against you. (Those in the industry know that is the truth and reality these days. They want someone on EVERYONE.) You don't run your train any longer. The computers do. But when things go haywire, it's thrown in YOUR lap. Multiple work areas. Slow orders. Flagging orders. People to talk to. And NO ONE THERE TO HELP YOU.

We've lost 5 men in Cincinnati over the last year. Two at work from heart attacks. On duty. I absolutely blame the railroad for their deaths. The railroads refuse to work with us. They refuse to give us good information to know when to rest so we are at our best FOR THEM. Now they want to cut it down to one and then push for none? 

One man crews are not safe.

Joe

joeygooganelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've said it here before and I'll say it again:
>
> Trains need 2 people in the cab on class one
> railroads. Period.
>
> I have over 35000 hrs of throttle and seat time. I
> think I know what I need to do my job. I don't
> care what some chump who got a degree doing a time
> study says. There are times I sit down and have at
> least 9 solid hours of running to do because
> they've loaded my train to it's absolute max. Trip
> optimizer is trying to save fuel and runs 10-15
> mph UNDER the speed limit. I don't get a chance to
> go to the bathroom. I'm not allowed breaks to eat.
> This is the reality on the railroads today.
> Computers can not replace humans when you
> literally have thousands of variables on a
> railroad.
>
> Imagine driving 10-12 hrs with no radio, music,
> cell phone, companionship, etc. All while having a
> camera pointed in your face waiting on you to
> break a trivial rule so they can use it to build a
> case against you. (Those in the industry know that
> is the truth and reality these days. They want
> someone on EVERYONE.) You don't run your train any
> longer. The computers do. But when things go
> haywire, it's thrown in YOUR lap. Multiple work
> areas. Slow orders. Flagging orders. People to
> talk to. And NO ONE THERE TO HELP YOU.
>
> We've lost 5 men in Cincinnati over the last year.
> Two at work from heart attacks. On duty. I
> absolutely blame the railroad for their deaths.
> The railroads refuse to work with us. They refuse
> to give us good information to know when to rest
> so we are at our best FOR THEM. Now they want to
> cut it down to one and then push for none? 
>
> One man crews are not safe.
>
> Joe

joe, I sure hope you encourage the up and coming to not start a railroad career and either go back to school or do something else.  Don't let them get 10-15 years into it and become stuck in what you've described.   Pay it forward.  

Shadetree, Alco, and Joey, I agree with you 100%. I have been in your shoes. I was trying to be somewhat sarcastic, because if you don't laugh at the rr's you will wind up crying. All I can say is the past 7 years have been outstanding. I know you can't wait to retire.

Sam

joeygooganelli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've said it here before and I'll say it again:
>
> Trains need 2 people in the cab on class one
> railroads. Period.
>
> I have over 35000 hrs of throttle and seat time. I
> think I know what I need to do my job. I don't
> care what some chump who got a degree doing a time
> study says. There are times I sit down and have at
> least 9 solid hours of running to do because
> they've loaded my train to it's absolute max. Trip
> optimizer is trying to save fuel and runs 10-15
> mph UNDER the speed limit. I don't get a chance to
> go to the bathroom. I'm not allowed breaks to eat.
> This is the reality on the railroads today.
> Computers can not replace humans when you
> literally have thousands of variables on a
> railroad.
>
> Imagine driving 10-12 hrs with no radio, music,
> cell phone, companionship, etc. All while having a
> camera pointed in your face waiting on you to
> break a trivial rule so they can use it to build a
> case against you. (Those in the industry know that
> is the truth and reality these days. They want
> someone on EVERYONE.) You don't run your train any
> longer. The computers do. But when things go
> haywire, it's thrown in YOUR lap. Multiple work
> areas. Slow orders. Flagging orders. People to
> talk to. And NO ONE THERE TO HELP YOU.
>
> We've lost 5 men in Cincinnati over the last year.
> Two at work from heart attacks. On duty. I
> absolutely blame the railroad for their deaths.
> The railroads refuse to work with us. They refuse
> to give us good information to know when to rest
> so we are at our best FOR THEM. Now they want to
> cut it down to one and then push for none? 
>
> One man crews are not safe.
>
> Joe

All of this is true and WHY the unions SHOULD NEGOTIATE rather than let the railroads and their political allies make the decision for them. And believe me,they will. The wheels were put in motion the day Congress mandated the RRs to spend billions on PTC. The RRs are going to do everything they can to monetize that expense. Today,tomorrow,and forever. Can't stop technology. Ask the canal boat captains how that goes. 

If 1960s era computers were able to land a vehicle on the moon, 2020 era computers can run a train. If you choose not to accept that,it's your choice,but it's going to happen so the unions best negotiate for something as they did with the end of firemen in the 70s, the end of cabooses in the  80s and the end of brakemen in the 90s. If they don't, no one but the companies will like the end result.

     Tom

towazy Wrote:
>
> All of this is true and WHY the unions SHOULD
> NEGOTIATE rather than let the railroads and their
> political allies make the decision for them. And
> believe me,they will. The wheels were put in
> motion the day Congress mandated the RRs to spend
> billions on PTC. The RRs are going to do
> everything they can to monetize that expense.
> Today,tomorrow,and forever. Can't stop technology.
> Ask the canal boat captains how that goes. 
>
> If 1960s era computers were able to land a vehicle
> on the moon, 2020 era computers can run a train.
> If you choose not to accept that,it's your
> choice,but it's going to happen so the unions best
> negotiate for something as they did with the end
> of firemen in the 70s, the end of cabooses in the
>  80s and the end of brakemen in the 90s. If they
> don't, no one but the companies will like the end
> result.
>
>      Tom
This is our livelihoods and we dare not think the worst unless and until the worst has come.....if we do we might as well walk away now......but how wise is that when you are 55, one step away from disablility but not able to get there.....still WILLING to work.....and utterly unemployable anywhere else????? I reject your reality and spit upon it....my own reality is much more cozy....for better or worse. 

One thing I learned on the rr was to NEVER say "It can't get worse." It can and will as long as the hedge fund boys control the stock price and employess are an expendiable commodity.