Eastern Railroad Discussion > Union lost crew consist arbitration

UTU lost the crew consist arbitration today. Which mean the carriers van now push for 1 man crews in national talks

https://smart-union.org/news/arbitrator-finds-that-section-6-bargaining-regarding-crew-consist-can-begin

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/21 21:05 by renaissance.

One man, or no man trains, are ultimately inevitable. PTC and energy management systems have assured that. 

 

renaissance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UTU lost the crew consist arbitration today. Which
> mean the carriers van now push for 2 man crews in
> national talks
>
> https://smart-union.org/news/arbitrator-finds-that
> -section-6-bargaining-regarding-crew-consist-can-b
> egin
>
> Posted from Android

I'm confused. I thought they already had two man crews.

altoonafn Wrote:
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> One man, or no man trains, are ultimately
> inevitable. PTC and energy management systems have
> assured that. 
>
>  

PTC can't set out a bad car, flag a crossing or perform a saw-by or other manual operation made necessary through the railroad's general cuts to overhead.

Are there some jobs that should be one person?  Certainly.  Manned helpers and light engines come to mind.  Hopefully the rail industry and the unions can reach a reasonable compromise. 

renaissance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UTU lost the crew consist arbitration today. Which
> mean the carriers van now push for 1 man crews in
> national talks
>
> https://smart-union.org/news/arbitrator-finds-that
> -section-6-bargaining-regarding-crew-consist-can-b
> egin
>
> Posted from Android

But will still have the same or more managers and office workers at a higher rate of pay sitting around being lazy while the computer does all the work (shaking head). Sad.

mbrotzman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> altoonafn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One man, or no man trains, are ultimately
> > inevitable. PTC and energy management systems
> have
> > assured that. 
> >
> >  
>
> PTC can't set out a bad car, flag a crossing or
> perform a saw-by or other manual operation made
> necessary through the railroad's general cuts to
> overhead.
>
> Are there some jobs that should be one person? 
> Certainly.  Manned helpers and light engines come
> to mind.  Hopefully the rail industry and the
> unions can reach a reasonable compromise. 

How often do saw by meets happen?  

While an extra man on the train is convenient for those scenarios to happen, why couldn't a utility conductor on a territory perform the same tasks?  Truth be told, a person camped out flagging traffic at a malfunctioning crossing could actually help keep trains moving, since the train would not need to stop to let the conductor off, and then stop to let him back on. 

altoonafn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mbrotzman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > altoonafn Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > One man, or no man trains, are ultimately
> > > inevitable. PTC and energy management systems
> > have
> > > assured that. 
> > >
> > >  
> >
> > PTC can't set out a bad car, flag a crossing or
> > perform a saw-by or other manual operation made
> > necessary through the railroad's general cuts
> to
> > overhead.
> >
> > Are there some jobs that should be one
> person? 
> > Certainly.  Manned helpers and light engines
> come
> > to mind.  Hopefully the rail industry and the
> > unions can reach a reasonable compromise. 
>
> How often do saw by meets happen?  
>
> While an extra man on the train is convenient for
> those scenarios to happen, why couldn't a utility
> conductor on a territory perform the same tasks?
>  Truth be told, a person camped out flagging
> traffic at a malfunctioning crossing could
> actually help keep trains moving, since the train
> would not need to stop to let the conductor off,
> and then stop to let him back on. 

That's pretty much what will happen in the near future.....redeployment.....father on...I will be retired...

altoonafn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One man, or no man trains, are ultimately
> inevitable. PTC and energy management systems have
> assured that. 

The failure rate of the auto control systems, and their inability to control the train at low speeds, means full automation is still a ways off.

Posted from Android

>>>  But will still have the same or more managers and office workers at a higher rate of pay sitting around being lazy while the computer does all the work (shaking head). Sad.

Admittedly, mid-mornings aren't too bad, but if it wasn't for COVID restrictions in the office, I'd  invite you to come in any other time, when crews are tying up and sending in paperwork, when other crews are going to work and having questions about their instructions, mines and grain elevators are sending in manifests for coal and grain trains to be loaded so that crews will have the proper paperwork and tonnage totals, customers are sending in car orders, logistics people are sending in diversion requests and demanding to know when their customers' cars are going to move, other railroads are demanding EDI corrections so that cars delivered off won't bounce back in interchange, automated billing needs to be overlaid and checked, unit train schedules need to be updated, AEI readers must constantly be kept updated, daily reports must be done for managers, and occasional phone calls are received from the public about any number of problems or questions...and see just how lazy this office worker is.   

Understand, I do NOT hate my work.  With one possible exception, it's far more interesting than anything else I've ever done in my lifetime.  And the pay has put supper on my table for nearly 17 years (from two different railroads) and is currently helping me cover some of my elderly mother's expenses as well.   

inrdjlg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
and see just how lazy this office
> worker is.   

Lol, just like the engineer sits around in a chair all shift doing nothing and the conductor less, and my crews always joked that I stood around all the time just pushing buttons and giving directions, so easy to suppose what someone else's job is like if you haven't walked in their shoes...

JG

jgilmore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> inrdjlg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> and see just how lazy this office
> worker is.   
>
> Lol, just like the engineer sits around in a chair
> all shift doing nothing and the conductor less,
> and my crews always joked that I stood around all
> the time just pushing buttons and giving
> directions, so easy to suppose what someone else's
> job is like if you haven't walked in their
> shoes...
>
> JG

Actually, I think the two of you agree. "inrdjlg" is also saying that you can't understand his office job and the way he can be pulled in many different directions at the same time (been there, done that, though not on the railroad) until you've actually done the work. Somehow though, JG, your post seems to say the opposite, which I don't think you intended. I think that you and "inrdjlg" actually probably agree and both are saying, in effect, "don't judge until you've actually done the job -- it can be a hell of a lot more challenging than it looks to be or you suppose it to be when you actually do the work".

A sentiment with which I completely agree.

And as to the Section 6 notice, an unfortunate turn of events. I continue to support and favor two-person crews. It is now up the the negotiators to bargain well and hard to achieve the best outcome.

MC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/21 12:35 by ironmtn.

Autonomous trains work in Australia with a Rovering conductor now in a helicopter. If the Aussies can make it work, believe me the yanks gonna  give it the old college try. American railroads, we spend a dollar to save a dime.

Proud Foamer
OAKLEY, CA

Badorder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Autonomous trains work in Australia with a
> Rovering conductor now in a helicopter. If the
> Aussies can make it work, believe me the yanks
> gonna  give it the old college try.

Here we go....this ISN'T Australia or a Lionel train set....

Posted from Android

Autonomous trains in America are only a question of when not if. With PTC and the advanced software now standard equipment in the new locomotives it could happen much more quickly than most of us could imagine. I'd be very surprised if by 2030-2035 nearly all Class 1 through freights weren't autonomous.

    2 years ago my 19 year old grandson wanted to become a locomotive engineer and I was able to convince him to pursue becoming a computer repair specialist which he's now in school to become. No sense starting into a trade that clearly has a short term future.

    IMHO-Ross Rowland 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/21 16:42 by co614.

Maybe conductors will be issued take home helicopters!   What a great idea, a bunch of helicopters hovering over the rail lines watching for something to go awry.  Especially somewhere like Chicago.  What could possibly go wrong?  Maybe each train can have a special helipad flat car on it so when the conductor is needed he/she can land on the train.

Cole42 Wrote:
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>   What a great idea, a bunch of
> helicopters hovering over the rail lines watching
> for something to go awry.  Especially somewhere
> like Chicago.  What could possibly go wrong?

Train dispatchers will just acquire the additional duty of air traffic control...with the same amount of aditional training and compensation that has been historically awarded for additional workload.

TAW

co614 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Autonomous trains in America are only a question
> of when not if. With PTC and the advanced software
> now standard equipment in the new locomotives it
> could happen much more quickly than most of us
> could imagine. I'd be very surprised if by
> 2030-2035 nearly all Class 1 through freights
> weren't autonomous.
>
>     IMHO-Ross Rowland 


And I guess you think we don't have any PROBLEMS with "PTC or the advanced software" on a DAILY basis either..??!!

Posted from Android

ironmtn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Somehow though, JG,
> your post seems to say the opposite, which I don't
> think you intended. I think that you and "inrdjlg"
> actually probably agree and both are saying, in
> effect, "don't judge until you've actually done
> the job -- it can be a hell of a lot more
> challenging than it looks to be or you suppose it
> to be when you actually do the work".

I was totally agreeing with him, in a more subtle and humorous sort of try. Of course, office workers have long suffered endless jokes about doing nothing all day, of which I'm sure there are many, but if that were truly the case all the time, nothing would get done ever, including work done in the field which depends upon work done in the office. My job now is mostly easy, but it took awhile to get to that point, along with a lot of hard work. Now I get paid more to use my brains than my brawn, but I understand the jokes when people see the "easy side" of what I do...

JG

The managers on my class one must not be too overly taxed. They still have plenty of time to hide in the weeds for hours and hours!

co614 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Autonomous trains in America are only a question
> of when not if. With PTC and the advanced software
> now standard equipment in the new locomotives it
> could happen much more quickly than most of us
> could imagine. I'd be very surprised if by
> 2030-2035 nearly all Class 1 through freights
> weren't autonomous.
>
> 2 years ago my 19 year old grandson wanted
> to become a locomotive engineer and I was able to
> convince him to pursue becoming a computer repair
> specialist which he's now in school to become. No
> sense starting into a trade that clearly has a
> short term future.
>
>     IMHO-Ross Rowland 

Yes, it will probably happen. Your timeline for it is fairly long (somewhat longer than others I have seen for trains, and even more so for autonomous vehicles). That said, the tech folks are finding it a lot more difficult to pull off for vehicles than anticipated. There's a lot of variability in circumstances on the highway that the core programming finds it tough to deal with. Even the most variable-accommodating algorithms and machine-learning techniques only take you so far. And right now, some say that it's not far enough, and some hard limits are being encountered.

Yes, there's less variability to deal with on a fixed-guideway railroad. But as so many professional railroaders on this board have pointed out so often (and as you know yourself from your time behind the throttle), there is still plenty of variability, and all manner of things can and do happen. Engineering tries to mitigate those, and over time builds a better and better and more resilient system. But flaws and unanticipated issues still can occur. Such variability and happenstance has always been the toughest thing for software to deal with. It's better and better at doing that all the time, but it is still a demanding problem. I have lived the nightmare weekends of dealing with entirely unexpected and unanticipated software and network issues occurring (despite meticulous planning and implementation, and good, resilient architecture). Many years of corporate IT experience and database admin work speaking here.

MC