Eastern Railroad Discussion > FRA Proposes Train Dispatcher Certification

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/05/31/2023-10772/certification-of-dispatchers

Open for comments until July 31.

TAW

Why the need?

It makes sense, but what is current
practice?

What are other’s experiences?

True story:
A long time ago, on a RR operated
by officers —- during an extended
strike, an officer/ engineer challenged what he thought was
a wrong or missing order about
a highway crossing work project
with rails removed from an eastbound Main ….

The dispatching officer commanded the engineer to follow the faulty orders, the engineer sought a witness, and then proceeded to depart on his assigned Train ….

Sure enough, when they reached
that town & crossing, the rails were
removed for crossing road work —-
all 4 locos went on the ground..
before the train got stopped…

His witness backed him up, as to
his legitimate objection to the dispatcher’s orders..

It took several days to straighten
that mess out..

W.

Posted from iPhone

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True story:
> A long time ago, on a RR operated
> by officers —- during an extended
> strike, an officer/ engineer challenged what he
> thought was
> a wrong or missing order about
> a highway crossing work project
> with rails removed from an eastbound Main ….
>
> The dispatching officer commanded the engineer to
> follow the faulty orders, the engineer sought a
> witness, and then proceeded to depart on his
> assigned Train ….

That officer / engineer should have been fired.

Sounds like the derailment during the RI strike at one of the crossings between Wilton and Durant Iowa in 1979.

Posted from Android

Having been out of the regulatory side of the industry for several years I must ask, does the FRA require that track car operators be certified? I would think that someone that takes track car/vehicle orders and moves vehicles on track under some type of movement authority should be certified like locomotive engineers. Just my opinion based on 35 years in the industry.
CR

Certified - someone makes money designing the class and tests, administering the tests, record keeping then auditing the tests, and fines for out-of-compliance paperwork, Financial penalties for errors, criminal liability for errors.

No wonder there are shortages of skilled workers in particular jobs.

Follow dollars.

Michael

Rule from Jan 2020:
"Title 49 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 243, Training, Qualifications, and Oversight for Safety-Related Railroad Employees requires each railroad or contractor that employs one or more safety-related railroad employees to develop and submit certain training programs to FRA for approval, and to designate the minimum training qualifications for each occupational category of employee. The regulation also requires most employers to conduct periodic oversight of their employees. Large employers (400,000 or more total employee work hours annually) must develop annual written reviews to determine the effectiveness of their training relating to employee performance gaps. Based on the results of the annual review, the employers’ designated person(s) coordinate any necessary adjustments to the initial and refresher training programs."

https://railroads.dot.gov/railroad-safety/divisions/safety-partnerships/training-standards-rule

Its a area that defiantly needs addressed, I had a new Class 1 90 day wonder Dispatcher try to take the track authority i had just cleared by a couple of feet by my foot counter back via PTC with out saying a word let along the fact that its dark territory that requires conformation of switch's handled or not handled. Of course she got chewed out politely but it didn't help based on further interactions. 
 

NSDTK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its a area that defiantly needs addressed, I had a
> new Class 1 90 day wonder Dispatcher try to take
> the track authority i had just cleared by a couple
> of feet by my foot counter back via PTC with out
> saying a word let along the fact that its dark
> territory that requires conformation of switch's
> handled or not handled. Of course she got chewed
> out politely but it didn't help based on further
> interactions. 
>  

Twice on a hyrail trip on BNSF for a consulting gig, I listened to the dispatcher and told the hyrail guy don't know about you, but I don't want to be on the track. In both cases he agreed (two places, two guys). One didn't set on and the other, we got off at the first crossing.

TAW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/23 09:17 by TAW.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why the need?
>
> It makes sense, but what is current
> practice?
>
> What are other’s experiences?
>
> True story:
> A long time ago, on a RR operated
> by officers —- during an extended
> strike, an officer/ engineer challenged what he
> thought was
> a wrong or missing order about
> a highway crossing work project
> with rails removed from an eastbound Main ….
>
> The dispatching officer commanded the engineer to
> follow the faulty orders, the engineer sought a
> witness, and then proceeded to depart on his
> assigned Train ….
>
> Sure enough, when they reached
> that town & crossing, the rails were
> removed for crossing road work —-
> all 4 locos went on the ground..
> before the train got stopped…
>
> His witness backed him up, as to
> his legitimate objection to the dispatcher’s
> orders..
>
> It took several days to straighten
> that mess out..
>
> W.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Just to make sure I have this right… this engineer/officer, knowing the rails were missing at a crossing, went through the town at a speed fast enough to derail the entire loco consist at said crossing? And all that just to prove a dispatcher wrong? If this story is true, the engineer/officer/whatever should have fired on the spot for his recklessness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/23 03:02 by offthebeatentrack.

offthebeatentrack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wcamp1472 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why the need?
> >
> > It makes sense, but what is current
> > practice?
> >
> > What are other’s experiences?
> >
> > True story:
> > A long time ago, on a RR operated
> > by officers —- during an extended
> > strike, an officer/ engineer challenged what he
> > thought was
> > a wrong or missing order about
> > a highway crossing work project
> > with rails removed from an eastbound Main ….
> >
> > The dispatching officer commanded the engineer
> to
> > follow the faulty orders, the engineer sought a
> > witness, and then proceeded to depart on his
> > assigned Train ….
> >
> > Sure enough, when they reached
> > that town & crossing, the rails were
> > removed for crossing road work —-
> > all 4 locos went on the ground..
> > before the train got stopped…
> >
> > His witness backed him up, as to
> > his legitimate objection to the dispatcher’s
> > orders..
> >
> > It took several days to straighten
> > that mess out..
> >
> > W.
> >
> > Posted from iPhone
>
> Just to make sure I have this right… this
> engineer/officer, knowing the rails were missing
> at a crossing, went through the town at a speed
> fast enough to derail the entire loco consist at
> said crossing? And all that just to prove a
> dispatcher wrong? If this story is true, the
> engineer/officer/whatever should have fired on the
> spot for his recklessness.

Why? He was just following orders and being subordinate, which is what is most important to the Carrier’s.

“Know your place, Peon” or face being permanently dismissed for insubordination.

Shameless boot licking and a$$ kissing is what gives mgmt the warm fuzzies.

We’re just here to help. 🤷‍♂️

Regards

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> That officer / engineer should have been fired.

A scheduled crew sure would have been.

TAW

ATSF VP of Operations on the ATSF, Dave Dealy, reportedly said that for his new hire ex-military people
90 days training was enough.  90 days from setting foot on the property to working on your own as a DS.

Englewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF VP of Operations on the ATSF, Dave Dealy,
> reportedly said that for his new hire ex-military
> people
> 90 days training was enough.  90 days from
> setting foot on the property to working on your
> own as a DS.

They were promised rapid advancement into Company Leadership upon successful completion of aforementioned DS bootcamp.
I don't recall any that made said advancement but do recall several that took siding.
Those were fun and interesting days in the SOC.

Seventyfive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Englewood Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ATSF VP of Operations on the ATSF, Dave Dealy,
> > reportedly said that for his new hire
> ex-military
> > people
> > 90 days training was enough.  90 days from
> > setting foot on the property to working on your
> > own as a DS.
>
> They were promised rapid advancement into Company
> Leadership upon successful completion of
> aforementioned DS bootcamp.
> I don't recall any that made said advancement but
> do recall several that took siding.
> Those were fun and interesting days in the SOC.

When I worked the TSS tour, cutting over TSS on BN, it seems like every Santa Fe management person I talked to was a dispatcher.

TAW

The program Mr. Englewood mentioned got rolling in late 1996 as I recall. 
The several I worked with and knew of all left the carrier prior to the move to Ft. Worth
which commenced in the summer of 1997.

During the four years I was there, I recall only one fellow DS who moved up, into one of
the business units; he gave that up and returned to dispatching.  He was not part of
Dave's army.  In his defense, Mr. Dealy supported all of us working in the SOC.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/23 17:13 by Seventyfive.

Seventyfive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The program Mr. Englewood mentioned got rolling in
> late 1996 as I recall. 
> The several I worked with and knew of all left the
> carrier prior to the move to Ft. Worth
> which commenced in the summer of 1997.
>
> During the four years I was there, I recall only
> one fellow DS who moved up, into one of
> the business units; he gave that up and returned
> to dispatching.  He was not part of
> Dave's army.  In his defense, Mr. Dealy supported
> all of us working in the SOC.

Then years later, Dealy was escorted off the property for embezzlement...