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Eastern Railroad Discussion > NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up.Date: 06/25/24 18:51 NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: PlyWoody FROM THE NTSB REPORT.
"As the train passed through Salem, Ohio, about 17 miles from East Palestine, an alarm was triggered and alerted a Norfolk back office analyst, who deemed it non-critical because the trackside sensor only showed car 23's wheel bearing at 103 degrees, the NTSB investigation found. Investigators said the sensor did not properly detect the true temperature of the overheated bearing and that Norfolk Southern's policies don't call for a train to be stopped and inspected until the hot bearing reaches at least 115 degrees.As the train approached East Palestine, critical alarms sounded on the train indicating that the overheated bearing had reached 253 degrees, prompting the train operator to apply the brakes in an attempt to stop the train, which was traveling at 42 mph, NTSB investigators said. By then, investigators said it was too late to avoid the derailment." WHAT THIS REPORT FAILS TO ADD IS THAT THE FAILED BEARING GAINED 61 DEGREES IN 10 MILES PER THE READING AT DETECTOR PRIOR TO SALEM. IT GAINED 6.1 DEGREE PER MILE COMPAIRED TO THE OTHER END OF AXLE. THAT IS A FAILED ON FIRE BEARING AND THEY FAILED TO STOP THE TRAIN AT SALEM. THEIR DETECTOR AT SALEM TOLD THEM ALL THEY NEED TO KNOW EVEN WITHOUT THE PRIOR DETECTOR TALKING TO SALEM DETECTOR. IT WAS NOT UP TO 113 DEGREES SO IT DID NOT FIT CRITERIAS. NOW NTSB SAID THE LIMIT WAS 115 degrees TO FLAG A STOP. 6 DEGREE IN EACH MILE SHOULD BE A STOP ORDER. FROM THE DETECTOR 10 MILES PRIOR TO SALEM THE BEARING WAS 42 DEGREES AND AT SALEM WAS 103 DEGREES--61 DEGREES HIGHER IN TEN MILES AND THE BACK OFFICE NORFOLK FAILED TO SEE THE PROBLEM. WHY DOES THiS NTSB REPORT FAIL TO NOTE THE STATUS 10 MILES PRIOR TO SALEM? At Salem the car only had to travel 2 more miles to meet criteria temperture, next detector was 17 miles away. Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/24 04:34 by PlyWoody. Date: 06/25/24 20:05 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: Spoony81 Why are you yelling at us??
Posted from iPhone Date: 06/25/24 22:48 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: radar The criteria may or may not be faulty, but a temperature rise between detectors could be a red herring. What if the train stops for an hour before passing the first detector? Then a temperature rise seen at the second detector would be perfectly normal. East Palestine is making the entire industry reevaluate how failing bearings are detected, including ultrasonic sound analysis.
Date: 06/26/24 05:16 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: Lackawanna484 Do NS systems actually keep track of and compare temps from hot box reader to hot box reader for the same train?
I thought they were independent of each other and are separately monitored. Posted from Android Date: 06/26/24 06:44 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: MP403 All of the Class I railroads have systems that perform a trend analysis of hot bearings. The detector data is linked across the network. The sophistication of each system varies by railroad.
It is not at all unusual for bearing temperature readings to fluctuate quite a bit, and one of the independent bearing experts said he would not have stopped the train at either of the first two detectors before East Palestine based on the temperature readings. Of course, we know that the warning from the East Palestine detector came too late. One of the NTSB's recommendations was to develop methods of more accurately assessing the internal temperature of wheel bearings, which is something today's common hotbox detectors cannot do. Date: 06/26/24 06:44 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: WM_1109 Spoony81 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Why are you yelling at us?? > Posted from iPhone Maybe he wasn't yelling. Perhaps he just needs a CLD*. /Ted *caps lock detector Date: 06/26/24 06:47 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: Tominde Are you saying NTSB is making a cover up? Your thread title is confusing. I read the report as NTSB is critical of NS for its handing of detectors. I don't see NTSB is covering up anything.
Posted from Android Date: 06/26/24 07:18 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: aehouse Tominde Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Are you saying NTSB is making a cover up? Your > thread title is confusing. I read the report as > NTSB is critical of NS for its handing of > detectors. I don't see NTSB is covering up > anything. > > Posted from Android Never let unrealized the chance for spreading conspiracy theories. A sign of our (very) sick times. Date: 06/26/24 08:53 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: junctiontower PlyWoody Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > FROM THE NTSB REPORT. > "As the train passed through Salem, Ohio, about 17 > miles from East Palestine, an alarm was triggered > and alerted a Norfolk back office analyst, who > deemed it non-critical because the trackside > sensor only showed car 23's wheel bearing at 103 > degrees, the NTSB investigation found. > Investigators said the sensor did not properly > detect the true temperature of the overheated > bearing and that Norfolk Southern's policies don't > call for a train to be stopped and inspected until > the hot bearing reaches at least 115 degrees.As > the train approached East Palestine, critical > alarms sounded on the train indicating that the > overheated bearing had reached 253 degrees, > prompting the train operator to apply the brakes > in an attempt to stop the train, which was > traveling at 42 mph, NTSB investigators said. By > then, investigators said it was too late to avoid > the derailment." > > > > > > WHAT THIS REPORT FAILS TO ADD IS THAT THE FAILED > BEARING GAINED 61 DEGREES IN 10 MILES PER THE > READING AT DETECTOR PRIOR TO SALEM. IT GAINED > 6.1 DEGREE PER MILE COMPAIRED TO THE OTHER END OF > AXLE. THAT IS A FAILED ON FIRE BEARING AND THEY > FAILED TO STOP THE TRAIN AT SALEM. THEIR > DETECTOR AT SALEM TOLD THEM ALL THEY NEED TO KNOW > EVEN WITHOUT THE PRIOR DETECTOR TALKING TO SALEM > DETECTOR. IT WAS NOT UP TO 113 DEGREES SO IT DID > NOT FIT CRITERIAS. NOW NTSB SAID THE LIMIT WAS > 115 degrees TO FLAG A STOP. 6 DEGREE IN EACH > MILE SHOULD BE A STOP ORDER. > > FROM THE DETECTOR 10 MILES PRIOR TO SALEM THE > BEARING WAS 42 DEGREES AND AT SALEM WAS 103 > DEGREES--61 DEGREES HIGHER IN TEN MILES AND THE > BACK OFFICE NORFOLK FAILED TO SEE THE PROBLEM. > WHY DOES THiS NTSB REPORT FAIL TO NOTE THE STATUS > 10 MILES PRIOR TO SALEM? At Salem the car only > had to travel 2 more miles to meet criteria > temperture, next detector was 17 miles away. Look, we ALL know that the criteria and methods NS used (and probably all other railroads) is faulty and insufficient, but if the data gathered didn't meet Norfolk Southern's or industry standards in place at the time to stop the train, then the report is likely not going to call it out. I watch a YouTube channel called Pilot Debrief, where a pilot breaks down air mishaps in great detail to determine what went wrong and what could be done better going forward. He FREQUENTLY mentions that many NTSB reports don't delve into areas he feels are relevant or glosses over important points. In most cases these are private pilot type mishaps, and there is no agenda or reason for there to be a cover up, so it speaks to the NTSB, and their methodology and the mindset of those that write the reports, not a grand conspiracy. Date: 06/26/24 09:11 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: bioyans It should be noted that the quoted temperatures are measured in degrees above the ambient air temperature.
It would certainly help if DOT/FRA mandated set specific temperatures above ambient as a definitive threshold at which, by law, a train must be stopped and inspected. Allowing defect detectors to remain unregulated (certified, specific test procedures and intervals, etc) and railroads to use their own moving goal posts on when an inspection needs to be done on an individual piece of equipment (the thresholds for which seem to get mysteriously raised when too many trains get delayed), only insures that nothing will change. Posted from Android Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/24 11:37 by bioyans. Date: 06/26/24 12:12 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: nsrlink bioyans Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > It would certainly help if DOT/FRA mandated set > specific temperatures above ambient as a > definitive threshold at which, by law, a train > must be stopped and inspected. Allowing defect > detectors to remain unregulated (certified, > specific test procedures and intervals, etc) and > railroads to use their own moving goal posts on > when an inspection needs to be done on an > individual piece of equipment (the thresholds for > which seem to get mysteriously raised when too > many trains get delayed), only insures that > nothing will change. B I N G O ! FRA is too worried about their cozy relationship with the railroads or oh gosh, this might cost them money. Detectors have been around for decades & no one in all that time at FRA thought, gee, we should have a regulation on where they should be required (X number of hazmat per year,) if they should ever be maintained .inspected to manufacturer spoecifications, what type of detectors should be required for lines handling X tonnage, what kind of alarms or triggers are necessary, etc. And they still don't have any regulations about any of that. FRA just sits on their hands and cries that it's up to Congress. I guess they forgot they have emergency orders they can issue immediately? Further, FRA /USDOT has no regulations on train tonnage or length or blocked crossings. And they won't because they're scared to death to do their jobs and regulate the RRs. You really don't see the FAA all cozy with the airlines. At one of the NTSB hearings, they even commented how cozy the RR / FRA relationship was. FRA needs to quit viewing the RRs as their partners and realize they are the regulators and tell AAR Ian Jefferies he can go $h!t in his hat, we are here to regulate you pal. Date: 06/26/24 12:13 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: bigmc83 Assuming NS and the other railroads are able to measure external bearing temp and detect when one reaches a threshold temperature, it might be more useful to measure the delta difference in temperature versus the train average. If the train average temp is 100 deg F (I'm just making up numbers) and one bearing is +20 deg F higher (versus maybe 5 deg F higher) then it could flag the crew. Either way, it looks like NS is using imaging as I've seen their advertisement for their camera "tunnel" that records defects as the train passes through. Just add a thermal camera to that and it should be able to pick up hotboxes.
-Sean Date: 06/26/24 20:46 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: PlyWoody There are two bearing on each axle. Compare their readings. One end is 40 F and at Salem the other bearing is 103 F. Because it was not at 113F they let the car go where in two miles it hits critical temperature of 115F. The next detector was 17 miles away at Eat Palestine. The cover up is the NTSB not taking issue of the car passing Salem without being stopped. That bearing gained all that heat in ten miles, Why let it go any farther? Are they protecting the fellow in back office in Norfork who let the car go? Why shield him? It was a failed bearing and comparing the two bearings on the axle told every one that fact.
Date: 06/27/24 10:52 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: Drknow Nsrlink for post of the day. I too have always thought it odd that FRA is part time Fed. regulator, part time company rules enforcer and part time cheerleader for the AAR.
Then when they are called out for issues like Palestine they 🤷♂️ and point to NTSB and congress. Bring back the ICC to ride herd on the lot of them. PS. Most every FRA field inspector I have ever worked with were good people that know things need changing at the top level of FRA; culture wise. Regards Posted from iPhone Date: 06/29/24 17:25 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: Gandoid Let's just Regulate them right out of Business. Then the TOTALLY F'd Up FED can Nationalize them! They do such a Fine Job with everything else they "Regulate". Axle Burnoffs have been round as long as RR's have been! Spend many $Billions on a "Cure"...and guess what? There will still be Axle Burnoffs! East Palistine was just an unfortunate accident...that is all!
Date: 06/29/24 17:41 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: Lackawanna484 Gandoid Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Let's just Regulate them right out of Business. > Then the TOTALLY F'd Up FED can Nationalize them! > They do such a Fine Job with everything else they > "Regulate". Axle Burnoffs have been round as long > as RR's have been! Spend many $Billions on a > "Cure"...and guess what? There will still be Axle > Burnoffs! East Palistine was just an unfortunate > accident...that is all! So, are you against requiring railroads to use modern ultrasonic "hot box detectors"? It's clear they won't install them without a powerful push... Date: 06/30/24 12:34 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: trainjunkie Drknow Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > ... that know things need changing at the top level of FRA; culture wise. I reckon that the list of Federal alphabet agencies that DON'T need a complete cultural overhaul is pretty small. Date: 06/30/24 13:40 Re: NTSB Report is hiding a key fact and making a cover up. Author: xrds72 Having been a Division Engineer for a Class 1 and having picked up my share of burned off axle derailments, there is always an argument for there never being enough detectors on any particular route.
Each railroad determines what their choice of technology and spacing is going to be. There is a good argument for some consistent standards for choosing trigger thresholds, etc. Who do you want to determine such standards? The FRA in conjunction with the suppliers and the railroads (i.e. the "experts")? The "government"? Or now, the courts? Choose your poison. As with such things as the Bridge Inspection Regulations (49CFR237), the railroads have always done a very good job with such things. In this area, railroad bridges have always been far better inspected and safer than highway bridges. |