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Eastern Railroad Discussion > “DARK” territory, on the NKP…


Date: 12/31/24 09:53
“DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: wcamp1472

John Rehor told us of an experience he had during a cab ride on a NKP
‘Berk’, in the 1950s.

He got a cab ride’ on a Berk, out of Frankfort, Indiana, headed to Bellevue, Ohio.

It was on a freight train and over ‘Dark territory’, meaning there were no block signals—
all “visual territory”.

Back in the day, when NKP Yards had built a freight train of 80-or so, cars they’d
“order a crew” and engine, and have the train ready to go, when all was ready.
So, while on the main line, there could be a train several miles ahead …

During his cab ride, Rehor asked the engineer, as they were running at 60-per,
“ What happens if that train ahead of us ‘gets an air hose?”

(“Gets an air hose” is RR slang for a burst train-line air brake hose…
The burst hose means an unexpected Emergency Brake application—
everything stops).

The engineer looked at Rehor and said:
“Looks like we’ll have to get an air hose, too!”


Comment:
Being on dark territory means no automatic block signals, visual
conditions govern you’re speed.

Back then NKP ran FAST, and often. As soon as they'd had enough cars,
they’d “call a train” —- schedule a departure …

Most of the trackage of the NKP was over very flat, Midwest territory, virtually no steep hills.

W.

( P.S.
In the ‘50s, NKP was an early
adopter of FM radios on it’s locos,
cabooses and control towers.
It was in the days of vacuum tube
radios, before transistors, so locos
and cabooses were fitted with
separate generators for the higher
voltage required by vacuum tubes.
So, in the above story, the engineer
of Rehor’s train knew that radio
communications would have kept
trailing trains informed of all
unexpected events.

In 1968, When we were restoring
NKP 2-8-4, #759, at the
roundhouse in Conneaut, Ohio,
over in a dark corner was
a steam turbine and bracket
that had held the turbine
& alternator for 759’s radio,
—- there was a dusty, steel
‘shop-tag, still attached: “759”!

Back in the 1950’s, before 759
was retired, the radio generator
had been removed & missing
the alternator portion..;
but, I wish I’d had the presence
of mind to have “rescued”
the 759’s generator bracket &
and turbine. Oh, well !)

Not proofed yet..

Posted from iPhone



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/24 10:34 by wcamp1472.



Date: 12/31/24 10:40
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: junctiontower

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Rehor told us of an experience he had during
> a cab ride on a NKP
> ‘Berk’, in the 1950s.
>
> He got a cab ride’ on a Berk, out of Frankfort,
> Indiana, headed to Bellevue, Ohio.
>
> It was on a freight train and over ‘Dark
> territory’, meaning there were no block
> signals—
> all “visual territory”.
>
> Back in the day, when NKP Yards had built a
> freight train of 80-or so, cars they’d
> “order a crew” and engine, and have the train
> ready to go, when all was ready.
> So, while on the main line, there could be a train
> several miles ahead …
>
> During his cab ride, Rehor asked the engineer, as
> they were running at 60-per,
> “ What happens if that train ahead of us ‘gets
> an air hose?”
>
> (“Gets an air hose” is RR slang for a burst
> train-line air brake hose…
> The burst hose means an unexpected Emergency Brake
> application—
> everything stops).
>
> The engineer looked at Rehor and said:
> “Looks like we’ll have to get an air hose,
> too!”
>
>
> Comment:
> Being on dark territory means no automatic block
> signals, visual
> conditions govern you’re speed.
>
> Back then NKP ran FAST, and often. As soon as
> they'd had enough cars,
> they’d “call a train” —- schedule a
> departure …
>
> Most of the trackage of the NKP was over very
> flat, Midwest territory, virtually no steep
> hills.
>
> W.
>
> ( P.S.
> In the ‘50s, NKP was an early
> adopter of FM radios on it’s locos,
> cabooses and control towers.
> It was in the days of vacuum tube
> radios, before transistors, so locos
> and cabooses were fitted with
> separate generators for the higher
> voltage required by vacuum tubes.
> So, in the above story, the engineer
> of Rehor’s train knew that radio
> communications would have kept
> trailing trains informed of all
> unexpected events.
>
> In 1968, When we were restoring
> NKP 2-8-4, #759, at the
> roundhouse in Conneaut, Ohio,
> over in a dark corner was
> a steam turbine and bracket
> that had held the turbine
> & alternator for 759’s radio,
> —- there was a dusty, steel
> ‘shop-tag, still attached: “759”!
>
> Back in the 1950’s, before 759
> was retired, the radio generator
> had been removed & missing
> the alternator portion..;
> but, I wish I’d had the presence
> of mind to have “rescued”
> the 759’s generator bracket &
> and turbine. Oh, well !)
>
> Not proofed yet..
>
> Posted from iPhone

I'm a little confused. Most, if not ALL of the former LE&W was signalled between Bellvue and Frankfort.  Many of those NKP  former bracket mast signals are STILL there between Fort Recovery  and St. Mary's Ohio. Now the former Cloverleaf was dark, but it couldn't handle Berks. 



Date: 12/31/24 10:58
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: zr190

Of course in the above scenario,  the rear brakeman would be expected to grab his flagging kit
and start walking back the prescribed distance and put down torpedo's and be prepared to flag
a following train.  Train radio or signals did not relieve him of that responsibility unless otherwise provided for.
zr190



Date: 12/31/24 11:12
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: Jimbo

junctiontower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a little confused. Most, if not ALL of the
> former LE&W was signalled between Bellvue and
> Frankfort.  Many of those NKP  former bracket
> mast signals are STILL there between Fort
> Recovery  and St. Mary's Ohio. Now the former
> Cloverleaf was dark, but it couldn't handle
> Berks. 

When I was Assistant Trainmaster in Lima in the 1970s, the former Lake Erie & Western from Frankfort to Arcadia was CTC, controlled by the dispatcher in Lima.  Arcadia to Bellevue on the original NKP was signalled, mostly 251 double track.  I don't know when the LE&W CTC was installed, but I heard after World War II.

Jim



Date: 12/31/24 11:14
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: timz

>  Train radio or signals did not relieve him
> of that responsibility unless
> otherwise provided for.

In the 1950s, the rulebook did usually (?)
relieve him of that responsibility in ABS.

Is this the right 1951 timetable?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1f5eD6nPCGM_hVdO7Uv5KVn2yagw0hZT3?usp=sharing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/24 11:19 by timz.



Date: 12/31/24 19:16
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: wcamp1472

Thanks for the more accurate accounts about that territory....

W.

 



Date: 12/31/24 23:23
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: BCHellman

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Rehor told us of an experience he had during
> a cab ride on a NKP
> ‘Berk’, in the 1950s.

He wrote one of the best historical railroad books. Set a standard

>
> During his cab ride, Rehor asked the engineer, as
> they were running at 60-per,
> “ What happens if that train ahead of us ‘gets
> an air hose?”
>

Max speed in dark territory after 1947 would be 49 mph freight

 



Date: 01/01/25 06:19
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: inrdjlg

I don't have my book with me, but I seem to recall that Arcadia to perhaps St. Marys got CTC in the very late 1940s, while the rest of the line to Frankfort got CTC in the very early 1950s.  



Date: 01/01/25 08:22
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: wcamp1472

He’s dead, now.
So it’s not proper to comment on things he’s said, or stories that Rehor told.

But, suffice it to say that he’d been known to “embellish” stories, to give
more impact.

The background to this story may have the facts that are in opposition to what Rehor was trying to relate—-
in order to give more drama & impact to his account.

Rehor was very instrumental in his influence in 759’s restoration , since in 1968 he was employed by N&W, out of Roanoke.

It was Rehor that recommended
retired, retired-General Foreman of
the roundhouse in Frankfort, Indiana,
be recruited by Ross as our “Technical Leader” to the restoration team that returned Berk 759, back to service in the summer of 1968.

In May of ‘68—- then N&W attorney, Robert Claytor, crafted a lease allowing The High Iron Co.’s restoration team to use
the roundhouse at Conneaut, Ohio.

Another extremely important person
in the restoration was retired NKP boilermaker, Joe Karal and his young
‘student’, Doyle McCormack.

Dale and Joe guided the team to keep us from making stupid mistakes in ‘playing-with’ fully operational
appliances on the loco —- thus making sure that fully operational appliances were not tampered-with.

Joe and Dale did a masterful lob in
focusing our efforts so that every day
was a day ‘forward’ in the restoration process …. They kept us from making mistakes in restoration that might have set us back….

Their guidance was crucial since none of us had any hands-on experience with a NKP Berk!

So, now you know some background
of how 759’s return to service started the subsequent whole parade of ‘park engines’ brought back to life—— that followed in the decades following 1968.

759 was the FIRST, and most widely
traveled, privately owned and maintained excursion-service steam
locomotive.

In the 1970s, Ross used the same team to restore SP 4449 to service, in Portland, Or. — to pull the American Freedom Train, west of Chicago, and around the USA in ‘75 and ‘76. 4449 became even MORE popular and well-known than the 759.

Later, Doyle maintained the 4449 and it saw many more years as a popular excursion engine, traveling the Country

W.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/01/25 09:33
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: Jimbo

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >  Train radio or signals did not relieve him
> > of that responsibility unless
> > otherwise provided for.
>
> In the 1950s, the rulebook did usually (?)
> relieve him of that responsibility in ABS.
>
> Is this the right 1951 timetable?
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1f5eD6nPCGM
> _hVdO7Uv5KVn2yagw0hZT3?usp=sharing

No, that's the Peoria Division timetable, Frankfort west to Peoria.  Need the one east of Frankfort.

Jim



Date: 01/01/25 14:40
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: TAW

zr190 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course in the above scenario,  the rear
> brakeman would be expected to grab his flagging
> kit
> and start walking back the prescribed distance and
> put down torpedo's and be prepared to flag
> a following train.  Train radio or signals did
> not relieve him of that responsibility unless
> otherwise provided for.


Also, back in those times, most rule books required trains to maintain no less than 10 minute headway. Along the line, if a train crew, gandys, operators, or others saw a train too close behind the previous train, the sign was hold up your watch and point to it.

A train moving at half or less of maximum authorized speed had to drop fusees at 10 minute intervals, or sometimes, 'when likely to be overtaken.'

The dispatcher might also relieve a crew of flagging by train order, which might be in the form of "not protecting," or in the form of a wait or string of waits behind for following trains.

When flagging in ABS, the flagman had ot protect only against trains moving at Restricted Speed, 'drawbar flagging' stangin next to the rear end of the last car.

TAW



Date: 01/01/25 18:11
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: train1275

Rule 99

Posted from Android



Date: 01/01/25 20:06
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: wabash2800

Something could have got misunderstood by one or more parties. He may have been talking about a time period earlier than mentioned or a different district.

I almost had the pleasure of speaking with him some years ago. I had called his house and his son answered the phone. He said his dad was outside watering something or another (its been a long time ago) and asked if I wanted him to come in. I didn't want to bother him so said I would call back later. By the time I got around too trying to contact him again, I heard that he had passed.

His Nickel Plate Story is probably my favorite railroad book of all time, even though I don't have that much interest in the NKP. That tells you how good of a railroad book it is! My only quibble is I wish he would have given us more of an idea of his references and providing footnotes or endnotes would have been great. But it is a great book in its own right. With his background, the photography was superb and there are some rare gems in those pages. Kalmbach did a great job on the layout. Providing thoughtful titles and subject matter to the chapters rather than a chronological history was genius too. Add the maps, the artwork and the rosters, and that book was worth every dollar you paid for it.

Victor Baird



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/25 20:09 by wabash2800.



Date: 01/02/25 10:36
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: timz




Date: 01/02/25 14:42
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: Jimbo

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like CTC Frankfort to Lima in 1952
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rFCNQGewZU0wc607w
> XcVj4do2iTo-jb2/view?usp=sharing
>
> The rest of the timetable is at
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1_gU2XmK2eZ
> yUD_WBitESCxVWuHu9Rzyh?usp=sharing

Thanks.  That's it, the Sandusky Division.  CTC Frankfort through Lima to Arcadia/DA, except for 251 on the joint double track with the B&O through Lima from Morris to South Lima/Erie Junction.

After the N&W merger with the Nickel Plate and the Wabash, the former LE&W was gradually downgraded as the Wabash was a superior route through Ft Wayne to St Louis and Kansas City.

Jim



Date: 01/09/25 09:28
Re: “DARK” territory, on the NKP…
Author: wabash2800

Very true. But on the flip side, the former Wabash 4th District (N&W Gary District) to Chicago from Ohio as a link to Buffalo via Canada was downgraded in favor of Nickel Plate's Chicago-Buffalo line.

Victor Baird

Jimbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> After the N&W merger with the Nickel Plate and the
> Wabash, the former LE&W was gradually downgraded
> as the Wabash was a superior route through Ft
> Wayne to St Louis and Kansas City.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/25 09:33 by wabash2800.



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