Model Railroading > WP ribside boxcar with a MILW history.CORRECTION!!!!

Does anyone have the MILW Rd car numbers for the two cars which were sold to the WP as there cars WP 416 and WP 417? With all the nice cars from Ribside Car Co and Intermountain I want to narrow down the WP cars to the correct MILW build details.

Thanks.

••••••••••••••••••••CORRECTION, PLEASE NOTE•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

It is reported WP 3416 became WPMW 205. There is photographic evidence this is not true.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,4252152,4254750#msg-4254750

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/17 15:46 by fbe.

I don't know the original Milwaukee numbers but the WP numbers were 3416 and 3417. 3416 became WPMW 0206 and 3417 became WPMW 0209. 3417/WPMW 0209 still lives at the Western Pacific Railroad Museum in Portola.

You should know that the two cars were not identical. I've never seen a side shot of the 3416/0206 and, sadly, it is long gone. But it had different ends than the 3417/0209. The 3416/0206 had the earlier 5-5 Dreadnaught ends while the 3417/0209 had the later 4-4 "improved" Dreadnaught ends (aka "rolling pin" ends).

If anyone has a shot of the WP 3416/WPMW 0206, I'd love to see it!

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Very cool looking car!

Why did the Milw only sell two cars to the WP? Were they payment for two WP cars damaged in an accident?


Ryan

WP bought them second-hand in 1961 for their 9' doors and Spartan Easy Loaders specifically for appliance service (Amana IIRC).

I found a couple more shots I took of this car back in 2005 from the hill to the south of the museum in Portola. You can clearly see that WP 3417/WPMW 0209 has the late 4-4 improved dreadnaught A-end with no lumber door and a diagonal panel roof. According to the Rib Side Cars web site on this page:

http://ribsidecars.com/ribsidecars_017.htm

That would make this a "Phase 4-Short Rib" car, except that it was later modified with a 9' door and Spartan Easy Loaders.

Again, the 3416/WPMW 0206 car was one of the early cars with the 5-5 end but I don't know what the side looks like since the only photo of it I've ever seen is of the A-end (in "Western Pacific Pictorial" by John Ryczkowski).

Hope this helps!

Mike
http://www.wpcaboosebook.com

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Yes, thanks for the photo. This is what you suspected and the last 40' car Ribside has produced is probably correct for this car. The other car should be pretty easy to narrow down from the earlier car body. A nice Morton roofwalk from Plano products would finish it off in style. The doors could come from the Intermountain PS boxcars if they do a 9' model.

I have a set of the DA decals for these cars. This project looks pretty straight forward. The WP Hist Society could probably get a custom run of these from 5th Ave Car Shops who does the specially decorated cars from Ribside Car Company kits. Grafting a replacement door on a decorated model will be challenging but not impossible. Both companies have websites. A Robins Rails PS-1 kit might have a 9' Youngstown door to use in construction.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/09 17:57 by fbe.

TJ,

Since all of the short rib phases except phase 1 have the 4-4 ends then if the 3416 has short ribs it is probably a Ph 1 car. If it has long ribs then it is a different car.

Does the book photo show a grain door in the A end? Can you discern the ends of the side ribs on the photo in the book?

Thanks again.

The photo in the book is a straight-on shot of the B-end and the lumber door, if there was one, would have been on the A-end. You cannot see the sides of the car at all in this shot.

I've been looking for a side shot of the 3416/0206 for quite awhile as I have one of the Rails Unlimited #43 type resin cars in O scale and I'd like to turn it into this car if it's correct. There is no O scale version of the car that is correct for the 3417 so I'm out of luck there.

http://railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com/Models/milwboxcars.html

So far nobody I've asked in the WP community has come up with a shot of it but my search continues.

Peter Arnold built a model of the 3417 from one of the MDC cars in HO many years ago and an article on it was published in issue no. 8 of the FRRS/WPRRHS journal, "The Headlight". I don't know if it's correct as I don't model HO but he used a door from an Athearn Railbox car.

Cheers!

Mike


fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TJ,
>
> Since all of the short rib phases except phase 1
> have the 4-4 ends then if the 3416 has short ribs
> it is probably a Ph 1 car. If it has long ribs
> then it is a different car.
>
> Does the book photo show a grain door in the A
> end? Can you discern the ends of the side ribs on
> the photo in the book?
>
> Thanks again.

It may be Pete Arnold's car which is photographed for the Detail Associates decal diagram. The MDC car (now an Athearn Blue Box item) needs a few changes. You can improve the ends by using the Detail Associates parts without ladders molded on. The roof is wrong and no replacement has been available until the Ribside Car Co kits have come out. The MDC car is also not quite tall enough. There seems no need to start with the MDC car anymore since the Ribside Car kits have become available.

Now what we need is a good photo of the WP 4316 or a reference to the MILW number which would allow us to identify which MILW group it came from. Does the WP equipment diagram book from the WP note the original numbers purchased from the MILW?

arb

Yeah, I figured the old MDC car was way off but I wondered about the door. For some reason I thought the Railbox cars had a 10'8" door and wouldn't be right for this car except in general appearance. But since I haven't modeled HO scale for many years, and I have no idea what is what these days, I dug out issue 8 of "The Headlight" to see what Pete said about it in his article, which was probably written back in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Sure enough, he says the Railbox car comes with a 10' door and that he shaved each side of it down to make it a 9' door. Whether a commercial 9' Youngstown type door exists in HO scale today is unknown to me.

The only complete WP freight car general arrangement diagram book I have is from 1958, which is a few years before this car arrived on the WP. I've started putting the word out to a few of my WP comrades about a diagram for this car so we'll see if anyone comes up with one. To date I've never seen anyone in the WP community come up with the original Milwaukee numbers for these two cars.

Cheers!

Mike

Okay, so I found a WP general arrangement diagram book from 1971 buried in a box of WP files I have. Now I know why I've never seen a general arrangement diagram for either of these cars. There isn't one! All there is on the page (5-A) where the GA diagram is supposed to be, is a general arrangement *description* of these two cars (see attached). Apparently a diagram was never created, which wasn't all that uncommon on the WP for oddball equipment.

Anyway, this page has a 1968 date. I don't know when the cars went into MOW service but this diagram was from when they were in revenue service. Some good information at least. But the only lead on finding the original Milwaukee numbers is the AFE (authorization for expenditure) listed on the GA sheet. It's AFE 108-62, which would have been in or around 1961. We have a pretty complete set of AFEs in the archive in Portola, and CSRM has a set as well so the next time I'm up there I'll try to track the document down and see if it yields any clues or information.

Cheers!

Mike
http://www.wpcaboosebook.com

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The specifications listed would seem to be for the WP 3417 which would seem to be from the MILW 25538 - 28559 series which was built between 12/48 to 07/49. Since the car photographed has the Morton roof with holes which means the car is from the end of production and may actually be built in 1949.

The earlier Murphy twin panel roof popular on Milw ribside boxcars went out of production in 1944 along with the dreadnaught 5+5 ends. So the WP 3416 could be from the MILW 21188 - 22187 series of 1944. The next series beginning with 22188 of 1945 had 4+4 improved dreadnaught ends. There are also earlier cars from 1941 which could have also provided the carbody.

This data is from the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Volume 13.

It would seem the kit #43 would be a good choice for WP 3416 in O Scale since it has the 5+5 dreadnaught ends and short side ribs though it predates the 1948 build date. So what are the chances of a 9' Youngstown Camel door in O acale?

Thanks for your help and interest in this quest, Mike.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/09 21:57 by fbe.

Nictd1000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why did the Milw only sell two cars to the WP?
> Were they payment for two WP cars damaged in an
> accident?
>
>
> Ryan

Here is a Thom Anderson post to the MILW Group at Yahoo.com from late 2005. This is also what I had heard around the MILW though I do not think I ever saw one of the cars in real life.

"I've never heard about their being wreck replacements for WP cars. I've
always heard the story as being WP wanted in to the Amana pool and somehow
ended up buying a suitable pair of cars from MILW rather than converting
something already on the roster or buying new. IIRC, the WP 3417 was
stencilled for return to Amana.

The 3416 so far appears to have been camera-shy. A friend has been searching
for a photo of it to confirm that the pair were not from the same original
series of car. If someone has a shot of WP 3416 it would be most welcome...

Thom"

There was also a KCS ribside car of MILW origin but I think it had 6' doors and was lacking any special loading equipment.