Model Railroading > That pesky WP MILW ribside boxcar, idea goes bust from new info

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http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,1960467,1963846#msg-
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Things are coming together. Tru color now has a WP freight car color. Kadee is selling 9' and 10' doors. I have the right Ribside Car kit with a diagonal panel roof with the 4/4 modern improved dreadnaught end for WP 3417 later WPMW 0209.

Here at Winterail I found a copy of Mr Ryczkowski's fine WP equipment book with the photo of the B end of the ribside car with the 5/5 end. This would be WP 3416 and WPMW 0206. There looks to be no cars tight to the side of the car. I find it hard to believe anyone shooting freight cars would pass up a shot of the side of this car in light like the car end.

I ask if there is anyone who can contact Mr. Ryczkowski to ask if he did take a side shot of this car and if his negative is accessible so it might be shared with modelers and historians.

Thank you all for the help.

Alan



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/17 16:15 by fbe.

Have you tried Bob's Photo (Bob Liljestrand)? Not sure what his current contact info is, but he has thousands of frt car photos. Also not sure if he'd be able to pinpoint photos of specific cars. You might try this email: bobsphoto [dot] train {at} yahoo /dot\ com

Alan,

Glad to see you are still pursuing this. I've asked Ski numerous times about a photo of the side of that car and never got a response. He had a heart attack a number of years ago and after he recovered, he seemed to disengage from the train scene quite a bit. I was in regular touch with him for a long time but he seems to have drifted away from the scene and most of the WP people I know haven't heard much from him in recent years either.

I don't blame him after his brush with death. He is a retired firefighter and IIRC he is an avid scuba diver. He is probably "enjoying every moment". I know I would do the same.

Meanwhile, the search for a shot of WP 3416/WPMW 0206 continues.

Mike

Mike,

One thing I picked up from the end of the car photo is there are 7 rungs on the ladder. The prototype cars started at 7 rungs then went to 8. These are 'splained in the instructions included with the kits so we might narrow the history from that. I am not back home from Winterail yet so it will be a couple of days before I can check. The plan is to get 2 WP and 1 MILW car assembled and ready for paint to take to the NWRPM meet o4/3o in Monroe, WA.

Sorry to hear John has had a run of health issues. If getting out of the basement and dark room are the way to recovery then that is the way to go.

Alan

Mike and Alan,
His wife, Mary, told me that John did finally get going on a model railroad so he may still be active.

Rick

I suppose I need to get started on the WP 3416 model and start cutting and filling to get a few things incorrect to finally smoke out the needed information. Perhaps it had long ribs, eh?

I am ready to fully commit to WP 3416 as being from the Milwaukee Road series 21188-22187 cars. Three items were used to confirm this decision. The 7 rung end ladder is critical. (The 7 rung ladder is critical to the photo but the photo is incorrectly identified as a ribside car. The 21188-22187 cars have 8 rung end ladders) This narrows the choices but the 10'8" inside height means 21188-22187 is the only option. Cars before this group only had a 10'6" inside height. The series chosen was built with a 10'9" inside height as are all following MILW cars. A 1972 ORER confirms an IH of WP 3416 to be 10'8" which could not be specified for a car built to 10'6" IH. The cars chosen are the last series built with 5/5 dreadnaught ends. All following cars had the improved 4/4 ends. So there we are, ends, IH, ladder rungs all match. All subject to change, if new photos come to be of course.

My information comes from the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia 13, a handout from John Greedy at the 2013 MRHA convention and the photo in the Western Pacific Pictorial book. Thanks to those who put those sources out there for research. Also thanks to the contributors to TO who helped fill things in.

Anyone who wants to model WP 3416 Ribside Car Companies model in the 4260 series of phase 1, short rib, 6' door model is what you want. A 9' narrow side door from KD or perhaps IM is a good match. If you don't have the decals 229-9004 on hand just waiting for this project they are available from Details Associates and a number of the usual retailers.

Thanks again for everyone's patience here over these years.

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Please note, photographic evidence presented by pismopete below in this thread shows this line of logic is incorrect due to mislabled photo information. The photograph used and previously assigned to WP 3416 is indeed from a completely different car. We are still looking for information and photos of ribside WP 3416 in revenue service.
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Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 09:59 by fbe.

Don't worry Alan, as soon as you get the model done, a side shot of the prototype will magically appear. LOL!

Mike, you've got that right! If my research is correct the prototype should be an exact match to the model. Only in a perfect world, eh?

When are you going to start the 9' door conversion of your O scale model for the WP 3416? You should also do one car right out of the box to run on the layout since the MILW built thousands of these 40' cars and they were the only 40' steel boxcars in the fleet until the first PS-1 cars came along.

I don't know what the total built was between 1939 and 1947. There were a few orders for 50 or 100 cars but more often the orders were for 1,000 cars with a final order for 3,000 cars. There were also multiple 500 car orders for 40' double door cars as well as a fleet of 50' single and double door cars.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/17 15:36 by fbe.

Alan, I gave up on modeling a long time ago and started selling stuff off years ago. I'm just too busy these days to enjoy it and certain health issues I have make it impossible for me to handle precision tools with the necessary dexterity that I need to build the level of models that I want. I'm going to stick with 1:1 scale for the time being. Don't need an OptiVISOR for that! :D

I am sorry to hear you don't build any more. I have found i commonly need to rest my wrists on the bench for support when doing fine work. A small sample of an import from Canada or domestic product from Tennessee has a steadying effect as well. I hope you can get your hands oily on some 1:1 equipment just to keep the juices flowing and the mind fresh.

LOL! I prefer the products from Kentucky myself but they defininitely don't help with modeling. They generally make me want to do something else entirely, usually something that gets me into trouble.

Heading back to Alaska in a couple weeks to get my annual dose of 1:1 scale. I usually get more than I need every season and by the time autumn rolls around, I've had enough. Wouldn't mind having the option to work year-round though. Just not up there. It hit -58 in Fairbanks a few weeks ago. No thanks.

Al,  you have the wrong car, here is WP MW0206 from my WP photo CD; not a rib car.

Peter

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Pete, very interesting. Then something in one of the rostrers is wrong. Or maybe the general arrangement diagrams. What did the other rib side car, WP 3416, become when it went to MOW?

Well that sure shoots a hole in the boat. Your photo is the actual car the photo of a car end in Western Pacific Pictorial really belongs to. Are there any photos of WPMW 207, WPMW 208 and WPMW 210 to show if the WP 3416 made it into MW service? Is there any data sheet for me cars to show if there is another car which matches the IL, IH and door opening of WPMW 209?

At this point the WP 3416 project is on hold and WP 4317 will be finished.

I see the rust spot below the joint you are referring to. Additionally, all MILW ribside car ends were welded together and thus lacked the line of rivets this car has.

Alan, ankle deep and rising........



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 10:04 by fbe.

Al,  I have SKI's MoW list that shows all previous numbers; and 3416 is not on it.  And yes, the image above is same as in SKI's book, matched the rust spot on end in both pictures!
I have a B&W broadside of 3417 before MoW conversion if you need it. It is other side than the one of MW 0209 in Ski's book.

Peter

Pete, yes thanks for the offer. Yes, I would like to see a photo of the WP 3417 intact in revenue service to help in my modeling efforts.

Alan

Some thoughts.

Since we now know the end of car photo of WPMW 206 is not for a ribside MILW build car it gives pause to the modeling project. However if there is another way to confirm WP 3416 had 5/5 dreadnaught ends or a Murphy roof I think the logic of determining the original MILW car range is valid given the needed inside car height.

The question becomes, why is it accepted there were 5/5 ends on the WP 3416 and 4/4 ends on the WP 3417? Is that based solely on that one photo or is it also from observations from employees or railfans who saw both cars in service?

I will build a model of WP 3417 from the Ribside Car Company kit with the 4/4 end and diagonal panel roof based on photos of WPMW 209. I will keep the parts for a 5/5 end, Murphy roof, 10'9" IH car together for now just in case more more information comes to be. Perhaps there will be some discussion over beer at the BARPM and WRPM meets this year to bring resolution to the dilemma. Come on WP fans and modelers, let's put the correct information on record.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/17 09:30 by fbe.

It's funny how these two cars have been discussed to death for years, even in the dedicated WP groups, then all of a sudden Pete comes along and blows all the prevailing data up with one photo. That is SOOOO typical in the WP modeling world. Veteran WP modelers have always said, "You'd better have some photos if you want it right. Don't guess." Glad it happened before the modeling began.

I'm still trying to remember where the data came from that showed WP 3416 becoming WPMW 0206. I know it was in some WP reference material or book but all of my stuff is in storage so I can't even look. It would be interesting to trace that information back to its source.

It's possible that 3416 never made it to MOW service. Now I want to see a photo of 3416 more than ever but after combing through thousands of WP photos, I've never seen it anywhere. I don't even want to build a model of it any more so I don't even know why I care but this is driving me nuts!

I don't have a thorough collection of WP books but I have been looking through the western railroad books I have for action photos of WP trains. All we need is a photo with a segment of the rib side with part of the 5/5 end or the Murphy roof. Photo reproduction in most books of a somewhat difficult. Maybe we will just get lucky or someone will remember the original source.