Model Railroading > Large scale issues?

With the beautiful A-B-A set of Fs and the engineers car I estimate them to be about 24 feet long. The track photo shows a typical switch mechanism at our place. The track panels are 10 feet each. If you look carefully you can see two sections of panels. I think that from our switch throw and the point to be about 20 feet. This loco arrangement could not, sadly, run at our place.
WWM or BAB how are your switches thrown? From the engineers car, from the ground or other way? The switches to the right are in the yard.
santafedan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/17 11:32 by santafedan.

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Easy: pull the lead unit up to the points; have engineer walk to switch stand...kinda of like it is done in the real world of big trains.

Marty Harrison
Knob Noster, MO

That is a beautiful consist!
For those of us who don't operate models, why is the length of the consist an issue? If it has to do with throwing switches, can't the engineer just get off and hand throw a switch? Is there any OTHER way to do it?
I can't picture what is the problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/17 12:05 by hotrail.

hotrail Wrote:
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> That is a beautiful consist!
> For those of us who don't operate models, why is
> the length of the consist an issue? If it has to
> do with throwing switches, can't the engineer just
> get off and hand throw a switch? Is there any
> OTHER way to do it?
> I can't picture what is the problem.


We normally come up to the switch stand and flip the lever so we do not have to stop. It keeps every thing moving along especially if it is busy. They are spring switches in the other direction for the same reason.

OK looking more closely I see how you have those levers set up in advance of the switch points. Pretty cool. I have not seen a similar set-up on the few live steam railroads here in SoCal.

Just yesterday I took my son for a ride on the Orange County Model Engineers track in Costa Mesa, CA. They seem to have spring switches and leave them lined to make a route that effectively goes around the park twice, by different routes, using a bridge in one location. So they don't throw a lot of switches on their main line during their public runs.

Maybe a head brakeman riding along?
If fast, fluid operation is the goal, hire herders or invest in power switches, hire signal maintainers and dispatchers, and go fast.
Otherwise do what real railroads do, adapt to the constraints of the infrastructure and avoid investments in the "plant" unless it is unavoidable.

Well if they can design, build and maintain all these switches with hand throws so far from the points, I think they can set up a tower with a proper interlocking and a towerman.

So, going back on topic, I am really puzzled at the OP's statement that "This loco arrangement could not, sadly, run at our place."

Can't you just let the guy run this consist, and get off to hand throw the switches? Did the club really tell I'm he could not run?

Add me to the confused list. Only thing I know of that cannot go through a switch is something (a steam engine?) with to long a wheelbase for the size of the switch. But, certainly not diesels, one or 4 units.

At our track in Ft Worth we have 5 kinds of switch machines all of which are sprung. In the yard and most of the main line we have flip-over leaver switch mechanisms at ground level to prevent someone from tripping. At a junction we have mechanical "advance" mechanisms where the switch can be thrown prior to arriving at it so the chosen route is set up. 3rd, we have one electric switch that can be thrown in advance. 4th we have a large full size switch stand with a large target showing which way it is thrown at a very important junction. 5, and lastly, we have 3 switches approaching the passenger station that use compressed air with advanced switch buttons to align the route wanted into the station. These were necessary because of automobile traffic.

hotrail Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, going back on topic, I am really puzzled at
> the OP's statement that "This loco arrangement
> could not, sadly, run at our place."
>
> Can't you just let the guy run this consist, and
> get off to hand throw the switches? Did the club
> really tell I'm he could not run?


My point was that the longer the consist the more difficult it will be to run at our place. The system is simple and works very well for us. We are at a large park with NO way to keep wanderers off the track when we are not there. There is no security to speak of. While the switches are not bullet proof they stand up to folks flipping them. Any other system probably would not last long.

We might ask any visitor to run a shorter consist. Or, run a set route. One such set up we use for our public runs would give them a 15 minute route. And, I believe I can set one up that would take about 25 minutes and still not require a switch to be thrown. However, during our "free or all"running it would not work for them.

So, you are saying that a 15-30 second stop to align a switch would cause significant delays?

Posted from Android

Marty Harrison
Knob Noster, MO

Sorry Santafedan, I've been in this hobby for 37 years and the fact that a train has to stop to throw a switch makes them unqualified to run at a club track is pretty weak in my opinion. Advance throws were not as comon as they are now just 20, let alone 30 years ago; we simply stopped at a set of points, walked up, and threw the switch. This hobby is not about speed, and that is where too many people get into unsafe situations anyway. I guess you would not let California's cab-forward run there due to length as it could not be shortened? If its a 20ft distance between the throw and the points, even a normal geep and riding car or northern would need to come to a near stop to properly check the points that they threw correctly so there would be enough time to stop if they don't close right. I've seen pacifics on their side when the loco couldn't stop when the points didn't close completly in a public park from a twig that fell from the tree. The advance thorws are nice so yu don't have to get off the train, but shouldn't be a mandatory requirement.

At Train Mountain we have what are called because of who built them, Kitsap switch machines that are located around 30 plus feet from the points. They look similar to full scale just smaller. If you get on the TM web site they can be seen at different locations on the web cams. This allows it to be thrown before most engine sets reach the points. They are all spring loaded points so you can run thru them with trailing points so only facing point switch throw is required like all of our switches are. It has steel electrical conduit that runs between the machine and points slightly under the ballast. The machine can be thrown easily from your seat and most times without coming to a full stop.

I run a PA PB set with engineer car and also an ABB set of F units that are a little over twenty feet long with no trouble and plenty of room between the throw and points. Hope that this answers your question. By the way just because you cannot throw the switch without leaving your engineer seat does not stop anyone from running any equipment at Train Mountain at any time. All are welcome here following
the rules to do so. Boyd at Train Mountain waiting for the return of those guys from down under to show again for there yearly visit.

hotrail Wrote:
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> Well if they can design, build and maintain all
> these switches with hand throws so far from the
> points, I think they can set up a tower with a
> proper interlocking and a towerman.


We have such for the upper level area where needed, remote computer tower control during the operations meet once a year and our big meet which is every three years and is coming up next year. Some of our switches in that area like four way crossing and such have remote buttons fifty or more feet from the switches and will align a route thru the area. Look at the track plan on our web site, Train Mountain and you can see the ladders around central station and at four way crossing, which by the way has full scale crossing arms which are automatic just like they were when on the full scale railroad. Boyd

livesteamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, you are saying that a 15-30 second stop to
> align a switch would cause significant delays?
>
> Posted from Android


On some railroads it may be a problem not all are the same we all should operate on other railroad and understand that some rules are different for a reason. We require safety chains or cables here others do not, we have our reasons others don't have the same problems as we do. Boyd at Train Mountain.

BAB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> livesteamer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So, you are saying that a 15-30 second stop to
> > align a switch would cause significant delays?
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
>
> On some railroads it may be a problem not all are
> the same we all should operate on other railroad
> and understand that some rules are different for a
> reason. We require safety chains or cables here
> others do not, we have our reasons others don't
> have the same problems as we do. Boyd at Train
> Mountain.


Thanks.

I think I need to come to Indiana Live Steamers next month and see just what SFDan is referring to.

"My point was that the longer the consist the more difficult it will be to run at our place. The system is simple and works very well for us. We are at a large park with NO way to keep wanderers off the track when we are not there. There is no security to speak of. While the switches are not bullet proof they stand up to folks flipping them. Any other system probably would not last long.

We might ask any visitor to run a shorter consist. Or, run a set route. One such set up we use for our public runs would give them a 15 minute route. And, I believe I can set one up that would take about 25 minutes and still not require a switch to be thrown. However, during our "free or all"running it would not work for them."

Are you there as a guest of the City? If so, as we are at LALS, you can get a fence around your area. We have emergency exits in the West End portion in case of emergency. The other thing we did was have a caretaker live on the property. You just need a good councilman or park rangers/mgt to work with.

I have to agree with Inthehole on this one also. The length of your locomotive should not be an issue through switches, unless you have a very long rigid frame, like a 4-12-2. That will straighten out most curves and switches when running. it does not take that long to throw the switch, and if you have a conductor riding, they through it back.

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "My point was that the longer the consist the more
> difficult it will be to run at our place. The
> system is simple and works very well for us. We
> are at a large park with NO way to keep wanderers
> off the track when we are not there. There is no
> security to speak of. While the switches are not
> bullet proof they stand up to folks flipping them.
> Any other system probably would not last long.
>
> We might ask any visitor to run a shorter consist.
> Or, run a set route. One such set up we use for
> our public runs would give them a 15 minute route.
> And, I believe I can set one up that would take
> about 25 minutes and still not require a switch to
> be thrown. However, during our "free or
> all"running it would not work for them."
>
> Are you there as a guest of the City? If so, as we
> are at LALS, you can get a fence around your area.
> We have emergency exits in the West End portion in
> case of emergency. The other thing we did was have
> a caretaker live on the property. You just need a
> good councilman or park rangers/mgt to work with.
>
> I have to agree with Inthehole on this one also.
> The length of your locomotive should not be an
> issue through switches, unless you have a very
> long rigid frame, like a 4-12-2. That will
> straighten out most curves and switches when
> running. it does not take that long to throw the
> switch, and if you have a conductor riding, they
> through it back.

We can't put up a fence. The large park is to remain OPEN at all times.