Model Railroading > F7 to FP7

Hello-Does anyone make a roof mounted steam generator intake/exhaust kit for HO scale?
I want to make a standard F unit into a FP.

An FP7 has a longer body and frame than an F7. Putting steam gen appliances on an F7 makes a passenger F7, not an FP7.

KG

Details West SG-118

These represent parts used on standard length F7 passenger units and extended length FP7 locomotives.

There have been "short" FP7's or F7's with steam generators. Athearn's old Globe F7 with steam gen detail does match some real engines, even if not very typical.

An example I am familiar with are D&RGW F7A's #5571 and 5574 were delivered with steam generators with the option of using those diesels in passenger service as a single engine. They were, in effect, short FP7A's. It is my understanding some of the northern RR's had the same types of F units, like NP or GN.

Cheers, Jim Fitch

NP had 2 FP-7's


SPDRGWfan Wrote:
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> There have been "short" FP7's or F7's with steam
> generators. Athearn's old Globe F7 with steam gen
> detail does match some real engines, even if not
> very typical.
>
> An example I am familiar with are D&RGW F7A's
> #5571 and 5574 were delivered with steam
> generators with the option of using those diesels
> in passenger service as a single engine. They
> were, in effect, short FP7A's. It is my
> understanding some of the northern RR's had the
> same types of F units, like NP or GN.
>
> Cheers, Jim Fitch

FP's are 6 feet longer behind the cab side ladder to accommodate a large vertical water tank inside behind the cab for more steam generator capacity, otherwise the space in the rear for the actual steam generator is identical. === === = === JLH

highgreengraphics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FP's are 6 feet longer behind the cab side ladder
> to accommodate a large vertical water tank inside
> behind the cab for more steam generator capacity,
> otherwise the space in the rear for the actual
> steam generator is identical. === === = === JLH


Right. And the "short FP7's" (F7 with SG) had a small water tank.

As it happens, D&RGW short FP7's were only in operation with steam generators for about 3 or 4 years; they were both in wrecks and during rebuild/repair the steam generators were removed and they served out the remainder of their careers as standard F7A's.

There are photo's in my book of one of the wrecks and you can see the roof with the steam generator details on it as proof of the info in the literature.

Cheers, Jim

Cheers, Jim Fitch

SPDRGWfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> highgreengraphics Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FP's are 6 feet longer behind the cab side
> ladder
> > to accommodate a large vertical water tank
> inside
> > behind the cab for more steam generator
> capacity,
> > otherwise the space in the rear for the actual
> > steam generator is identical. === === = === JLH
>
>
> Right. And the "short FP7's" (F7 with SG) had a
> small water tank.


>
> As it happens, D&RGW short FP7's were only in
> operation with steam generators for about 3 or 4
> years; they were both in wrecks and during
> rebuild/repair the steam generators were removed
> and they served out the remainder of their careers
> as standard F7A's.

FP7's are a distinctive class, separate from the standard F7. You could call a steam generator equipped F7 and "F7P" is you wanted. But technically speaking of course, there was no such loco as a short FP7. Of course Jim, you can call it anything you like if you wish. BTW, F7's with steam generators were actually quite common. A number of F7's lacked steam generators, but had SG controls and steam lines for use with other units that had steam generators in a motive power consist. SP and Santa Fe were two examples.
>
> There are photo's in my book of one of the wrecks
> and you can see the roof with the steam generator
> details on it as proof of the info in the
> literature.
>
> Cheers, Jim
>
> Cheers, Jim Fitch

An F7 with a steam generator is not a FP7....its a F7 with a steam generator.......

Before putting a steam generator on a F "A" unit, you may want to be sure it was prototypical. The Santa Fe, for example, had steam generators only on the "B" units.

John Acosta
Palm Springs, CA

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FP7's are a distinctive class, separate from the
> standard F7. You could call a steam generator
> equipped F7 and "F7P" is you wanted. But
> technically speaking of course, there was no such
> loco as a short FP7. Of course Jim, you can call
> it anything you like if you wish. BTW, F7's with
> steam generators were actually quite common. A
> number of F7's lacked steam generators, but had SG
> controls and steam lines for use with other units
> that had steam generators in a motive power
> consist. SP and Santa Fe were two examples.

Yep. That's probably why people qualify the terms when discussing them. "short FP7A" is a descriptive term - not official one. And some point out that some terminology and nomenclature typically used by railfans and modelers isn't the same as used by railroads and/or the manufacturer.

I don't really recall anyone refer to a FP7 on anything other than the stretched F unit most of us are familiar with.

As for common, what exactly is common? What percentage of all A units produced, more specifically. I've been following EMD F units most of my life but have only been made aware of a handful of F7A's (for example) that were equipped with steam generators. Relatively few, a couple here and a couple there. B unit is another thing. But for the purposes of this discussion, I'm thinking A units is the focus.

Based on my knowledge of the D&RGW, I would expect there to be significantly higher percentage of B units with steam generators than A. All 6 of D&RGW F3B unit's had SG in those three F3 ABBA sets. IIRC, 6 of the F7B units initially had SG's in 3 F7ABBA sets as-delivered, and a couple more were added later (F7B 5582 and 5583, from memory). And of course the 4 F9B units had SGs. Some FTB units had SG's too, but I don't recall how many - at least 2. A rough guess on the on the D&RGW from memory, EMD B units with steam generators ~ 20 or 22, while EMD A units, only 2.

From specifics I recall the B units from F7 sets 5551,52,53,54, 5561,62,63,64 and 5571,72,73,74 all had steam generators in the B units as delivered, and in the last set, both A units had them 5571 and 5574. D&RGW mainly set up it's passenger power with A units which could control the steam generators in the B units in it's set. Rio Grande Zephyr F9ABB units were the same - the A unit had no SG but controlled the SG's in the B units. And we know that D&RGW supplemented them with the Alco PB unit which was converted to a SG unit in 1965 and it was used on the CZ in winters and later on the RGZ in winters also.

Cheers, Jim Fitch

SPDRGWfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > FP7's are a distinctive class, separate from
> the
> > standard F7. You could call a steam generator
> > equipped F7 and "F7P" is you wanted. But
> > technically speaking of course, there was no
> such
> > loco as a short FP7. Of course Jim, you can
> call
> > it anything you like if you wish. BTW, F7's
> with
> > steam generators were actually quite common. A
> > number of F7's lacked steam generators, but had
> SG
> > controls and steam lines for use with other
> units
> > that had steam generators in a motive power
> > consist. SP and Santa Fe were two examples.
>
> Yep. That's probably why people qualify the terms
> when discussing them. "short FP7A" is a
> descriptive term - not official one. And some
> point out that some terminology and nomenclature
> typically used by railfans and modelers isn't the
> same as used by railroads and/or the
> manufacturer.
>
> I don't really recall anyone refer to a FP7 on
> anything other than the stretched F unit most of
> us are familiar with.
>
> As for common, what exactly is common? What
> percentage of all A units produced, more
> specifically. I've been following EMD F units
> most of my life but have only been made aware of a
> handful of F7A's (for example) that were equipped
> with steam generators. Relatively few, a couple
> here and a couple there. B unit is another thing.
> But for the purposes of this discussion, I'm
> thinking A units is the focus.

Well, if I include F3's, which during the last years of production were nearly identical to the early F7 run, then as an example of just few, you have the following roads with (probable) SG equipped F (A)units: BAR, NYC, B&M, ACL, SAL, Erie, Lackawanna, CGW, CB&Q, T&P, MP, RI, GN, NP, WP, UP, NdeM, GTW, MKT, DRGW, possibly more.
>
> Based on my knowledge of the D&RGW, I would expect
> there to be significantly higher percentage of B
> units with steam generators than A. All 6 of
> D&RGW F3B unit's had SG in those three F3 ABBA
> sets. IIRC, 6 of the F7B units initially had SG's
> in 3 F7ABBA sets as-delivered, and a couple more
> were added later (F7B 5582 and 5583, from memory).
> And of course the 4 F9B units had SGs. Some FTB
> units had SG's too, but I don't recall how many -
> at least 2. A rough guess on the on the D&RGW
> from memory, EMD B units with steam generators ~
> 20 or 22, while EMD A units, only 2.
>
> From specifics I recall the B units from F7 sets
> 5551,52,53,54, 5561,62,63,64 and 5571,72,73,74 all
> had steam generators in the B units as delivered,
> and in the last set, both A units had them 5571
> and 5574. D&RGW mainly set up it's passenger
> power with A units which could control the steam
> generators in the B units in it's set. Rio Grande
> Zephyr F9ABB units were the same - the A unit had
> no SG but controlled the SG's in the B units. And
> we know that D&RGW supplemented them with the Alco
> PB unit which was converted to a SG unit in 1965
> and it was used on the CZ in winters and later on
> the RGZ in winters also.
>
> Cheers, Jim Fitch



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/17 14:21 by ATSF3751.

So out of all F3A, F7A and F9A units, how many were delivered with steam generators vs. the total built by EMD in the US?

At least in Rio Grande's case, per Don Stracks site I did a quick count of EMD F units (A only) and total was 76 counting FT's, F3's, F7's and F9's. Only 2 of those 76 A units had steam generators; or 1 in 38. Common? Depends on your definition of common. Typical, not on the Rio Grande. Oh, and after 1953, none of the A units had steam generators so 0/76 for most of the life of the F units on that RR. I don't know other RR's however so it would be interesting to know.

I'm wondering in terms of numbers, how common they actually were across all US owners of EMD F (A) units?

Cheers, Jim



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/17 14:38 by SPDRGWfan.

Wasn't / isn't D&RGW #5771 an F9A?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/17 23:11 by E25.

Ok ill talk for WP since that's what I know. First off, the FP7 is not 6 feet longer, its 3 feet longer. In the photo which sad I don't know who's photo it is to give proper credit, the 4 arrows show where the 3 foot extensions are. The roof line has a 3 foot panel with rivets, there is a a 3 foot add in panel with the front louver in it ( on a f7 the louver is in the panel with the front window.) in the lower panel where the lettering is is the best example of the extension panel with the water fill hatch behind it. And the last extension is where WP made their own tool box to go in front of the battery box.
WP ordered F3s in ABB format. ALL of which had steam generators. WP then bought F7s in a ABBA format designated as A,B,C and D. The "A" units had no SG but did have water tanks, the "B" unit carried a water tank and a SG. The "C" unit had water tanks only and the "D" unit which was the other A unit had no water tanks or a SG. These units where purchased for freight use, but could be used on secondary passenger trains and specials. All units had pass through steam lines.
WP was not pleased with the F3 Steam gens and EMD told them they were cataloging the FP7 with a newer steam gen and extra water tanks. WP had water issues on the East end which is why plenty of water tanks was preferred. WP could have gotten F7As with steam gens, but wanted the extra water capacity. This is all documented from WP company records.

---

Tom,

Nice photo who's ever it is. Thanks for correcting the figure for the added stretch to the F7 on the FP7 - 3'. I thought 6' sounded wrong from memory. I actually have the Athearn Genesis model of that WP FP7A as it was an iconic engine on the WP section of the California Zephyr run. So how many standard F (A) units did the WP have with steam generators? Three F3A's?


E25 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wasn't / isn't D&RGW #5771 an F9A?

That's right.

Cheers, Jim Fitch

Curve ball time. Not all FP-7's had steam generators. CPR ordered some FP-7's without S/G's. I would be curious as to why this was.

Another place locomotive steam generator roof top components can be found is in Highliner kits. If you know someone who has built a freight unit from the kit you might work an arrangement to acquire the parts you need from them.

We are both wrong. The extension for an FP is FOUR feet, not 3 or 6. I said 6, just from memory, getting old plays with facts in your head, it's not the first thing that goes, anyway, FOUR feet is the correct amount, you'd think I'd know, since I ran two of the real things on the WYCO. === === = === JLH

SPDRGWfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Three F3A's?

>
> Cheers, Jim Fitch


Yes sir. 801A, 802A and 803A.