Passenger Trains > Another reason to take the train vs. flying

Just noticed the following announcement in my United 1K newsletter:

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Get there when you need to on United

Find guaranteed seat availability on virtually any United®, TedSM or United Express® flight worldwide, even sold-out flights. Simply call United Reservations to book a full-fare (Y-class) United Economy® ticket.*

Advance purchase requirements are as follows:

Global ServicesSM members: Up to 60 minutes before actual departure time
1K® members: Up to 90 minutes before actual departure time
Premier Executive®, Premier® and non-elite level members: Up to two hours before actual departure time
Call United Reservations at 1-800-UNITED-1 (1-800-864-8331) for more information.

* No discounts are permitted."

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I'm almost certain they're not holding seats unsold for last minute walkups, so what I think this means is they would be happy to toss off some discount fare travelers (if unable to bribe them to get off on their own) in order to accommodate a full fare frequent flier. Tough love in the friendly skies!


Dave

According to a news report this morning, UAL has also been putting less fuel in their aircraft to make the plane lighter---and more cost effective to fly. Because of this, they have had an increase in fuel emergencies because they get low on fuel before they planned due to long sitting times on taxiways. I wonder how much longer UAL will be around?

That certainly is a blatant "let them eat cake" statement from United, Mr. Paterson.

It is one thing to expect that when there has been an "unanticipated capacity loss" such as from "mechanical", weather, or Flight Crew availability, to look out for the folk that butter the bread. That measurement is of course one's "status' within an airline's reward program. But to be as blatant as United has been would simply cause anxiety amongst the majority of passengers that have booked using a fare basis lower than unrestricted "Y" or "F".

Just as well my travel needs, save a family emergency, can be met either with auto or (drum roll) LD Amtrak (or, in the minds of some here, is Auto Train NOT LD Amtrak?).

smitty195 Wrote:
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> According to a news report this morning, UAL has
> also been putting less fuel in their aircraft to
> make the plane lighter---and more cost effective
> to fly. Because of this, they have had an increase
> in fuel emergencies because they get low on fuel
> before they planned due to long sitting times on
> taxiways. I wonder how much longer UAL will be
> around?


Old, time-tested aviation saying: "There's nothing more useless than the altitude above you, the runway behind you and the fuel you left on the ground."

There isn't anything new or unusual about UAL's statement. Delta and British Airways have had these policies in place for years. Hilton and Avis both do something similar for their top level frequent customers.

9 times out of 10 they can free up the space by bribing a volunteer. When they do have to kick somebody off they will start with those paying no fare (those on a pass) or the lowest standby fares. If you buy a standby ticket or are on a pass the airlines make it pretty clear that you're subject to seat availability. It once took a babysitter of ours over a week to get out of Anchorage, but that's what you get for flying standby.

If you're on your vacation and bought a basic discounted advance purchase ticket then you need not worry, however.

I agree with you Waybiller - unlikely to be a problem under most circumstances. But I wonder about those crush travel periods when capacity is totally strained by holiday travel and inevitable weather issues. I was stuck at O'Hare in the late August thunderstorms with tens of thousands of others and wonder how much more testy people would have been had they known that those who could afford to were buying their way onto sold out flights. As it was, UA got me to the head of the wait list line based on my FF status, but thousands of others spent one or even two nights in Chicago waiting for flights out.

Dave

This is kind of off-topic but I'll ask anyway. I know I've never seen this happen on a train (and I'd MUCH RATHER take the train over flying any day), If an airline overbooks a flight and can't get a volunteer to go to another flight, do they draw names out of a hat and just force someone to stay behind and that's that?

Amtrak288 Wrote:
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> This is kind of off-topic but I'll ask anyway. I
> know I've never seen this happen on a train (and
> I'd MUCH RATHER take the train over flying any
> day), If an airline overbooks a flight and can't
> get a volunteer to go to another flight, do they
> draw names out of a hat and just force someone to
> stay behind and that's that?


They will deny boarding, and there are federal regulations that govern how compensation for said denial is handled.

Amtrak288 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is kind of off-topic but I'll ask anyway. I
> know I've never seen this happen on a train (and
> I'd MUCH RATHER take the train over flying any
> day), If an airline overbooks a flight and can't
> get a volunteer to go to another flight, do they
> draw names out of a hat and just force someone to
> stay behind and that's that?


Not literally a random process, but I'm sure each airline has a triage practice to decide who to deny boarding to, if for no other reason than to avoid possible complaints of discrimination. These likely include fare paid, date booked, availability of alternate flights and (lack of) frequent flyer status. Under federal rules, though, they can deny you transportation for a set level of compensation.

Dave

Amtrak288 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is kind of off-topic but I'll ask anyway. I
> know I've never seen this happen on a train (and
> I'd MUCH RATHER take the train over flying any
> day), If an airline overbooks a flight and can't
> get a volunteer to go to another flight, do they
> draw names out of a hat and just force someone to
> stay behind and that's that?


There is some sort of a protocol but unfortunately I'm not sure what it is and it may vary by carrier. Full fare ticket holders would likely be safe as would upper tier members of the FF program. A non-rev on a pass would go first as there is no revenue loss there. After that would be someone on a deeply discounted fare, perhaps the last of the bargain basement types to check in. I suspect that the bargain basement passengers would be lured by the free ticket offered and passage on the next flight which is the standard fare these days for volunteering. I've never seen anyone bumped involuntarily.

And yes, there ARE goodies associated with being a good customer. Why not? They want to earn and keep my business. And I travel often enough to make it worth their while to do so.

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA

And, of course, trains always are reliable at crush times and bad weather. Sorry, but Amtrak ain't my dads' Royal Blue or Pennsys' Congressional.

Okay, we obviously have a lot of non-frequent flyers on this board. United can of course say whatever they think people will believe, but here's the reality:

1) Whatever fare you paid, if you have an advance seat assignment and a boarding pass, you're on the plane (unless there's an equipment problem and the airline must substitute a smaller plane).

2) If you DON'T have either a seat assignment, a boarding pass, or both, you're in the "likely to be bumped" group. But the airline has GUARANTEED you a seat, so if you're bumped involuntarility (you or another passenger won't accept their offer, whatever it is) then Federal law guarantees you compensation. i believe it starts at $250 plus transportation to your destination (which of course you already paid for), plus meals and hotel as appropriate (if flight cancellation or bump is due to weather problems, you may not get this).

3) Bottom line: If UA involuntarily bumps somebody to meet this guarantee, it's going to cost them big time. Sell your stock.

Not all airlines are like UAL. Checkout Southwest's new innovations http://www.southwest.com/new/?ref=HP_hero_110707

In other words some carriers are best than others. Southwest actually knows how to make money in a very competitive business. Too bad we can't challenge SWA to go toe to toe with AMTRAK!

when we flew we used only one seat..we flew 'united'...

rresor Wrote:
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> Okay, we obviously have a lot of non-frequent
> flyers on this board. United can of course say
> whatever they think people will believe, but
> here's the reality:
>
> 1) Whatever fare you paid, if you have an advance
> seat assignment and a boarding pass, you're on the
> plane (unless there's an equipment problem and the
> airline must substitute a smaller plane).
>
> 2) If you DON'T have either a seat assignment, a
> boarding pass, or both, you're in the "likely to
> be bumped" group. But the airline has GUARANTEED
> you a seat, so if you're bumped involuntarility
> (you or another passenger won't accept their
> offer, whatever it is) then Federal law guarantees
> you compensation. i believe it starts at $250
> plus transportation to your destination (which of
> course you already paid for), plus meals and hotel
> as appropriate (if flight cancellation or bump is
> due to weather problems, you may not get this).
>
> 3) Bottom line: If UA involuntarily bumps somebody
> to meet this guarantee, it's going to cost them
> big time. Sell your stock.

And if you want to know what rights you have as a passenger just go to the carriers website and do a search for their "Rule 240". You want to check each airline individually because the "240's" vary from one carrier to the next.

Butch,,,,,,over 168k miles and still adding more

NormSchultze Wrote:
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> And, of course, trains always are reliable at
> crush times and bad weather. Sorry, but Amtrak
> ain't my dads' Royal Blue or Pennsys'
> Congressional.


I'd rather be on that train in bad weather than on a plane flying through it.

Airlines are really feeling the pinch of high fuel prices (well gee whiz, considering how much gas they use!) and word has it that the biggees (United, American, Delta) are canceling flights, parking planes, and reducing their daily schedule to bare bones. So if you want to go to Grandma's for Thanksgiving you had better get your tix NOW and be prepared to shell out major $$$$$. Even then, with the reduced fleet you can bet your bottom dollar that this year's Holiday air travel is gonna be horrific; the stuff that nightmares are made of.

And no matter what the pundits say, Amtrak does on HECK of a great job getting people from A to B as long as you're not sweating the minutes. So go over the river, through the woods, and hop on a train.

krapplem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Old, time-tested aviation saying: "There's
> nothing more useless than the altitude above you,
> the runway behind you and the fuel you left on the
> ground."


Another old, time-tested aviation maxim: "The only time you can have too much fuel is when you're on fire!"

This is how things went with North West Airlines. We waited until 15 minutes before departure before filling the seats. If there were non-revenue passengers, and they still had open seats, they got on. If a paying passenger showed up before we closed the flight the non-rev passengers or volunteer passengers were removed. They did NOT get compensation. Non-rev wasn't paying, and volunteers normally were hoping to get out earlier, and they volunteered to get off. If the flight was over booked and everybody was a paying passenger we would start asking people if they wanted to go to another flight, maybe with a different airline. If nobody would get off still, then the bribes would start. Sometimes this meant a later flight, but, first class. It really depended.

Continental uses the ticket fare codes for bumping. Discount codes go first, so Y V, etc are the first thrown off if they can't get volunteers.

Within the same code, it's date of purchase, so the most recent buyers go off first (LIFO). Frequent flyer elite code gets you a pass, so an elite travelling on a Y code doesn't get tossed first.

Amtrak, on the other hand, is delighted to sell 1200 tickets for a 900 seat train. I've stood or sat on my luggage between Boston and Newark, and between Philadelphia and Baltimore. It isn't comfortable, but you get there, eventually.