Passenger Trains > Gas Tax "Holiday" - Philadelphia Inquirer editorial

Revenues from federal gasoline taxes not only fund highway projects, they are also an important source of federal funding for mass transit.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/18681119.html

Dave

I don't need the Inky to persuade me that the gas-tax "holiday" proposals rank among the worst political pandering I have ever seen. Even if the oil companies don't try to offset the benefit by raising their own prices, the savings consumers would actually receive will be minimal and we'll have more bridge collapses like the I-35 mess in Minnesota last year -- not to mention the transit angle.

At least Clinton had a scheme to make the oil companies pay for it, even though they would have just added it on to the pump price. McCain's proposal is 100% pure pander.

At least Obama had the right instincts on this one, whether or not he knew why!

ON THE OTHER HAND, Clinton actually specifically mentioned high speed rail in one of her West Virginia speeches today -- a rather odd place to do so, but nevertheless -- as a neglected area in desperate need of infrastructure support.

lowwater

>
> ON THE OTHER HAND, Clinton actually specifically
> mentioned high speed rail in one of her West
> Virginia speeches today -- a rather odd place to
> do so, but nevertheless -- as a neglected area in
> desperate need of infrastructure support.
>
> lowwater

I don't think so. Sen. Byrd takes care of things Even has his own highway. I thought they waited until you passed over the great divide to name highways after you. How many Universities have a people mover. smile.

Bob

RobJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ON THE OTHER HAND, Clinton actually
> specifically
> > mentioned high speed rail in one of her West
> > Virginia speeches today -- a rather odd place
> to
> > do so, but nevertheless -- as a neglected area
> in
> > desperate need of infrastructure support.
> >
> > lowwater
>
> I don't think so. Sen. Byrd takes care of things
> Even has his own highway. I thought they waited
> until you passed over the great divide to name
> highways after you. How many Universities have a
> people mover. smile.
>
> Bob


The gas tax holiday, of course, is not happening. But the way to reduce oil company profits is to do the opposite...raise the gas tax, because then the oil companies will be unable to pass it along, because to do would reduce demand sufficiently to leave them with undesired surplus supply.

lowwater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At least Clinton had a scheme to make the oil
> companies pay for it, even though they would have
> just added it on to the pump price.

Sorta defeats the purpose then, doesn't it?

smitty195 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lowwater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > At least Clinton had a scheme to make the oil
> > companies pay for it, even though they would
> have
> > just added it on to the pump price.
>
> Sorta defeats the purpose then, doesn't it?

Yes and no. Reindeer has it right. The only way to start weaning this country off oil dependence is to make oil more expensive, and raising taxes (like the Europeans did long ago) is one way to do that. We saw the impact of price during the 1970s oil crisis: that was the last time that energy efficiency and development of fuel alternatives was taken seriously. Once oil got cheap again, the alternative-fuels research ground to a halt and Americans gradually regressed to driving 15-mpg vehicles again.

Short of regulating the industry (and subsidizing the difference between cost and retail price) the way Amtrak is ran or the way the airlines used to be ran prior to 1978, none of these are going to happen. Make no mistake about it. If the taxes were suspended, Wall Street (part of the problem in the first place) would rally up the difference on crude, futures, and on the NYMEX-thus becoming a self defeating proposition.

To that end, I would also like to add two more thoughts. First, of COURSE we are in Iraq for the oil. I'm not going to get into the moral rectitude of the reasons attached after the fact. But yes. That is at least part of the reason we are there.

And the other point is YES. Our economy is predicated on the need for cheap and abundant oil. It doesn't matter whether it's "right or wrong" nor does it [now] matter that we pissed away our home supply of it long ago. I'm simply saying that if we want to continue our "way of life", then we need it. Period.

For all of the hype and hoopla and expectations of "alternative" energies, I'm afraid it's all just that. Anyone who thinks that solar panels and Toyota Prius's are the pancea are horribly misguided. It's not because of their lack of technical viability, but rather, economic scalability. There simply isn't enough platinum in the world to build enough batteries to replace every car in the country. And then there's the issue of finding, mining, transporting, and assembling the raw materials. Where does all of the energy needed to do THAT come from?

Yep. More oil. So the paradox to all of this is that in our effort to get off of oil, we will ultimately end up using MORE of it.

What good are the Colorado tar sands going to be if, for every barrel produced, we BURN two? It's a net energy loss and a counterproductive failure. This is why we will never run out of oil per se, but will simply stop drilling for it when we reach the point that we burn more trying to get it out than actually comes from the ground. And we are getting close to that now. Why would we be clamoring to set up rigs 200 miles offshore, in five thousand feet of water, to drill two miles under the bottom-unless we didn't have to?


It isn't as though nobody couldn't have seen this coming. We were simply distracted with "Reality" TV shows and Brittney Spears train wreck of a personal life to bother. Who CARES about any of that stuff when you can see nude pictures of Paris Hilton on line? Another big part of the reason for the recent run ups was, as noted, skyrocketing demand from China and India.

Well who allowed that to happen in the first place? Who propped up those countries economies that are now demanding to enjoy the fruits of their labor?

Oh yeah. We did it. We thought we were such brilliant geniuses when we switched over to the so-called "Information Based Economy" where we would deal just in numbers and pixels while those suckers would be stuck with the dirty work of actually MAKING things.

How else do you think we got to have $200 flights to New York or $25 DVD players that we so love, demand, and take for granted?

Oh yeah.

We moved the Call Centers to India and the factories to China.

Oops

If it weren't for the US (and by extension, the American consumer), the Indians would still be bathing in the Ganges and the Chinese would still be getting around on sampans and hand drawn carts. And gas here in the US could still be $1.50/gal.

So when you think we "won" with the Wal-Marts and Best Buys of the world and how they supposedly increased the standard of living, remember. It was all an illusion. A fantastic short sighted hoax. Because even though we "won" there, we are still losers. We are paying for it by way of $4 (soon to be $5 or higher) gas and $6 for a box of cereal....because of the cost of diesel needed to transport it.

Frankly, I don't see much way out of this. We could either A) bomb the entire Middle East to smithereens and simply sieze the oil fields (not likely to happen, we are already getting our ass kicked there, to say nothing of the disasterous political consequences both domestically and internationally that such an action would bring), or B), accept that the 'old' way of American life, roughly the years 1950-2000 are, essentially over. And it's time to revert back to the days of localized ecomonies. No more 5000 mile trips to lay on the beach or 2000 mile trips to see Grandma. And no more three-hundred flavors of salad dressing to choose from at the grocery stores. And you can forget about easting strawberries in winter because they came from Chile or Argentina. Those are out too. Or C) regulate the oil companies as a utility. And be ready to see your taxes raised to the moon. Sure, you might be able to pay $1.50 at the pump again. Too bad your take-home pay will be cut in half. Or D) Just accept that high prices are here to stay. Basically shut the F*** up and pay it and go about your business.

Everyone is hoping that so-called energy dependence will be a new way to continue old habits.

They are in for a very rude, sad, and sobering awakening when the practical impossibility of that hope smacks them in the face like a 4X4 wooden plank.

As stupid as it all is, at least Hillary would compensate with new tax on oil companies so as not to raid General funds or the HTF, unlike McCain. It is quite soemthing to listen to that stupid Glenn Beck endorse McCain's gas tax holiday ($9B depletion of General funding - 5 Amtraks - for 3 monhs) and in the same sentence call Obama a socialist.

Time to get rid of the gas tax period!!!

Don't we just love the time period leading up to presidential elections??

samreeves Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Time to get rid of the gas tax period!!!

And pay for roads and transit how? Let's increase it by a few pennies and get some real HSR going.

Wow, des-lab, what a rosy picture of life in the future here in the good ol' US of A.

Instead of sitting here and laying blame as to how we arrived in the situation you described... which I could do but I'm sure everyone else will... (I don't refute your analysis, I believe it is technically accurate.) I will point something else out:

This country has a funny way of innovating its way out of a funk. It has little to do with politicians or big companies, usually some guy in some little laboratory or garage workshop comes up with an idea that blows the lid off of conventional thinking. I have a feeling this is going to happen with "energy independence." Be it a better battery, better use of solar, better ethanol production that doesn't use food stock... somewhere someone is working on it, most likely because he is tired of paying $4 for diesel to run his equipment.

Anyway, I have faith that as a people we are going to figure out how to maintain our standard of living, maybe even improve it. This will likely happen in spite of Washington politics or what the big corporations tell us on their happy-faced infomercials on tv.

Crashela

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samreeves Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Time to get rid of the gas tax period!!!
>
> And pay for roads and transit how? Let's increase
> it by a few pennies and get some real HSR going.

The alternative I've heard described is the vehicle-miles tax, which in theory is a more accurate representation of road use. The problem with it is how to assess and collect it without creating a big new bureaucracy and personal privacy concerns.

Crashela Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This country has a funny way of innovating its way
> out of a funk. It has little to do with
> politicians or big companies, usually some guy in
> some little laboratory or garage workshop comes up
> with an idea that blows the lid off of
> conventional thinking. I have a feeling this is
> going to happen with "energy independence." Be it
> a better battery, better use of solar, better
> ethanol production that doesn't use food stock...
> somewhere someone is working on it, most likely
> because he is tired of paying $4 for diesel to run
> his equipment.
>
> Anyway, I have faith that as a people we are going
> to figure out how to maintain our standard of
> living, maybe even improve it. This will likely
> happen in spite of Washington politics or what the
> big corporations tell us on their happy-faced
> infomercials on tv.
>
> Crashela

I'm glad to see some optimism, but I think we need a better Plan B (more supplies of convention energy sources, nuclear energy, HSR corridors to relieve traffic and air congestion, etc.) while we wait for the innovation. The problem I see is that politicians, either from lack of economic understanding or willful pandering, are taking away the incentives to innovate.

Just doing something positive won't change the long-run increase in world-wide demand for petroleum very much, but it could cause the speculators in petroleum futures to take a severe hit rather quickly.

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The alternative I've heard described is the
> vehicle-miles tax, which in theory is a more
> accurate representation of road use. The problem
> with it is how to assess and collect it without
> creating a big new bureaucracy and personal
> privacy concerns.

I agree completely. As we you to more total electric and battery-standby motor hybrid vehicles, road pricing is going to be more of a problem. But for now, the fuel tax is a pretty good proxy for road usage (except heavy trucks are getting a bargain).

It's always easy to simply assume that one is being "pessimistic" and "downbeat" when discussing issues such as this-despite one poster above conceding that it's pretty much right on the money. Is it no coincidence that bulls outnumber bears? After all, who would YOU rather hang out with? Some NFL cheerleaders-which are what Bulls tend to be like? Or Eyore? That somber, low brow blue donkey that hangs out with Winnie-The Pooh-which can be the symbol of the bears?

But metaphoric symbolism aside, bad news and being "pessimistic" aren't necessarily synonymous with each other. As much as we would all love to dismiss, ignore, or assume away negativity, sometimes we just can't. Not believing in the truth doesn't mean it still isn't true.

It would be nice to sit there and think we will simply invent our way out of this. Despite all of the overwhelming factual evidence that points to the contrary. More to the point. Has anyone stopped to consider that the "way of life" we are trying to defend and maintain *IS* the problem?

Stop and consider this. One gallon (approx 7 ½ pounds) of gasoline contains enough energy to propel a three ton SUV ten miles in ten minutes.

How many Snickers bars would YOU have to consume and how long would it take you to PUSH the same SUV the same distance?

You see the problem here? Except for maybe a pellet of plutonium (which presents all kinds of challenges on its own, being one of the most toxic substances known to man), what else contains such a vast amount of energy in so small a space?

And again. You aren't seeing the bigger picture. It isn't *JUST* limited to how to fill up our gas tanks. That's just one small piece of a much larger paradigm. One also needs to look at the entire supply chain including raw materials, cost and energy needed to extract, transport, and assemble them for the final product.

And finally. Is being in denial really a good thing? That's just it. Far too many folks only see what's right under their nose in front of their face. They don't look behind and don't look ahead. And now they are acting dumbfounded and blindsided with this-even though it was obvious to anyone with the ability to connect the dots that this was coming? A huge part of understanding why we are in the mess we are in (and considering what options are available to get us out), then I'm sorry, but it *IS* important to understand the road that led us here.

I'm going to bring up another old chestnut: "Necessity is the mother of invention." Alternatives to the traditional gasoline/diesel engine, and to petroleum in general as a fuel source, were doomed as long as cheap oil made them unncessary. Heck, think of how long it took internal combustion to replace steam power because steam power was the status quo.

Des-Lab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There simply isn't enough platinum in
> the world to build enough batteries to replace
> every car in the country.

Don't forget about the other dirty little secret of hybrids......with an (approximately) 10 year lifespan of hybrid batteries, there needs to be a safe and effective way of disposing of all of the HazMat contained in them....namely, Nickel. We have not approached that time period yet, but we will soon. Maybe we can clear out a few billion acres somewhere to make way for all of the used up hybrid batteries and burnt out twisty bulbs with their mercury. Yup, I believe we are truly shooting ourselves in the foot.

> We moved the Call Centers to India

I can't be the only one who hates this. With ESL (English as a Second Language) call centers in foreign countries, I am finding it extremely difficult to get even the simplest questions answered. There's got to be a stop to the insanity that we continue to put ourselves through.

> Frankly, I don't see much way out of this. We
> could either A) bomb the entire Middle East to
> smithereens and simply sieze the oil fields (not
> likely to happen, we are already getting our ass
> kicked there, to say nothing of the disasterous
> political consequences both domestically and
> internationally that such an action would bring),
> or B), accept that the 'old' way of American life,
> roughly the years 1950-2000 are, essentially over.
> And it's time to revert back to the days of
> localized ecomonies. No more 5000 mile trips to
> lay on the beach or 2000 mile trips to see
> Grandma. And no more three-hundred flavors of
> salad dressing to choose from at the grocery
> stores. And you can forget about easting
> strawberries in winter because they came from
> Chile or Argentina. Those are out too. Or C)
> regulate the oil companies as a utility. And be
> ready to see your taxes raised to the moon. Sure,
> you might be able to pay $1.50 at the pump again.
> Too bad your take-home pay will be cut in half. Or
> D) Just accept that high prices are here to stay.
> Basically shut the F*** up and pay it and go about
> your business.

Or, E) Utilize the oil that we have, which we currently refuse to drill for or import. ANWR has 5 to 15 BILLION barrels of useable oil. And Mexico could certainly export more oil to the USA to help pay for all of the social programs of THEIR citizens. But unfortunately, our elected officials no longer have the huevos to do the right thing and put us back on track. It's a darn shame. They, with the assistance of the midstream media, continue to remind us how horrible we are and not to be proud of our accomplishments.

Until someone invents something to replace oil, which is the lifeblood of the world's economy, it's here to stay.

smitty195 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Des-Lab Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > There simply isn't enough platinum in
> > the world to build enough batteries to replace
> > every car in the country.
>
> Don't forget about the other dirty little secret
> of hybrids......with an (approximately) 10 year
> lifespan of hybrid batteries, there needs to be a
> safe and effective way of disposing of all of the
> HazMat contained in them....namely, Nickel. We
> have not approached that time period yet, but we
> will soon. Maybe we can clear out a few billion
> acres somewhere to make way for all of the used up
> hybrid batteries and burnt out twisty bulbs with
> their mercury. Yup, I believe we are truly
> shooting ourselves in the foot.
>
> > We moved the Call Centers to India
>
> I can't be the only one who hates this. With ESL
> (English as a Second Language) call centers in
> foreign countries, I am finding it extremely
> difficult to get even the simplest questions
> answered. There's got to be a stop to the insanity
> that we continue to put ourselves through.
>
> > Frankly, I don't see much way out of this. We
> > could either A) bomb the entire Middle East to
> > smithereens and simply sieze the oil fields
> (not
> > likely to happen, we are already getting our
> ass
> > kicked there, to say nothing of the disasterous
> > political consequences both domestically and
> > internationally that such an action would
> bring),
> > or B), accept that the 'old' way of American
> life,
> > roughly the years 1950-2000 are, essentially
> over.
> > And it's time to revert back to the days of
> > localized ecomonies. No more 5000 mile trips to
> > lay on the beach or 2000 mile trips to see
> > Grandma. And no more three-hundred flavors of
> > salad dressing to choose from at the grocery
> > stores. And you can forget about easting
> > strawberries in winter because they came from
> > Chile or Argentina. Those are out too. Or C)
> > regulate the oil companies as a utility. And be
> > ready to see your taxes raised to the moon.
> Sure,
> > you might be able to pay $1.50 at the pump
> again.
> > Too bad your take-home pay will be cut in half.
> Or
> > D) Just accept that high prices are here to
> stay.
> > Basically shut the F*** up and pay it and go
> about
> > your business.
>
> Or, E) Utilize the oil that we have, which we
> currently refuse to drill for or import. ANWR has
> 5 to 15 BILLION barrels of useable oil. And Mexico
> could certainly export more oil to the USA to help
> pay for all of the social programs of THEIR
> citizens. But unfortunately, our elected officials
> no longer have the huevos to do the right thing
> and put us back on track. It's a darn shame. They,
> with the assistance of the midstream media,
> continue to remind us how horrible we are and not
> to be proud of our accomplishments.
>
> Until someone invents something to replace oil,
> which is the lifeblood of the world's economy,
> it's here to stay.

Of course, there's enough oil and natural gas off the coasts of California, Florida, and New Jersey to give the US a few decades of energy supplies. Congress put those areas off limits to drilling decades ago...