Passenger Trains > Without Amtrak ?

We hear stories about Amtrak all the time involving the good, bad and ugly.
Just food for thought: what if Amtrak did't exist.
What kind of train travel would be have?
Would it be better or worse, or would be just as it was prior to 1 May 1971?
Do you feel that the Superliners are better than the old streamliners?
A good comparison are VIA's Budd pass cars used on the Canadian.
I often wonder how things would be without Amtrak since I keep hearing more negative than positive remarks.
Thank you for your thoughts on this matter.

Hal

Probably nothing in the long distance arena. Possibly some private operators with high end cruise trains that the general traveling public could not afford. As for the equipment, I prefer the Budd cars if not for the Domes alone. Far superior to the Sightseer Lounge. That said, Amtrak's bedrooms (former Deluxe Bedroom) are superior to VIAs "Cabins for 2" given that they have a shower and much larger lower bed. I prefer VIA's "Cabins for 1" over Amtrak's ex. "Economy Bedroom" due to facilities in the room. At times, the down the hall washrooms can be downright nasty if the attendant doesn't keep clean or passengers are pigs.

Hal,you ask a good question and B. Anderson hits a lot of nails on the heads. Having been a Streamliner era child and having seen name trains go away on at a time with train off orders in the 1960s, I also see some very good things about Anmtrak and yet ,largely for nostalgic pangs, I miss the older, longer and more interesting trains of yore.
The up side of the Superliner is that hauling a shorter train and carrying the same load as an 18 to 24 car train used to do is more cost effective and handles more pax easily for the head end folks. Station stops are easier with less double stops, etc. The bedrooms are as stated above so somethings are gained and lost there. The Sightseer Lounge is a knock off from the Ex AT&SF El Cap lounge with the Katchina Coffee Shop downstairs.Coaches are coaches and it is hard to design a universally comfortable generic one size fits all butts seat for long distance riding. But I think Amtrak did ok here if the cushions are replaced regularly.
Overall our Nation is a lot better off with Amtrak in the world, but it is not perfect. Consists are cookie cutter with only a few variations in the Superliner trains and single level trains are the last bastion of nostalgia even with the Amfleet stuff in the train. Diners and lounges still ring of old. Cosmetics are gone with a train like the LSL (48 and 49) having a baggage car on the rear instead of a round end Obs But on balance I am very happy to have Amtrak and it should be improved, expanded and continued.Three P-42s and 18 Superliners in a train today seems almost a dream, but if the system keeps needing more seats and rooms as ridership grows, that could be a reality someday ala the days of the Zephyr when all coupled together at salt Lake in the late 1980s.

Phil Blommendahl
Getzville, NY



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/13 09:45 by Phil1.

bring back the single level streamliners......

66

If there was no Amtrak, there would be no long distance trains, period.
It would probably be the NEC and that's a maybe.

This subject has been debated and speculated on for at least 40 years. It's all up to Congress. There's no other, or simpler, answer.

Art House
Gettysburg, Pa.

The best answer I can give to "would we be better off "without Amtrak" is; Yes, if we could think of something better. But, of course, this is the big problem--what would be better? The cost structure of passenger trains severely limits our choices. Subsidies will always be necessary regardless of who "operates" them.

Yes, today's Amtrak has a nasty "political side" that has kept politicians, and many of us here on TO arguing for years. We'd all like to get rid of this, but we can't find an alternative that is "subsidy free".

If you disregard all this, and just look at today's passenger trains themselves; and compare them with the Streamlines of the "Golden Age"; how does today's Amtrak stack up?

Personally, I think today's equipment, including Acela, is quite sterile, inside and out, when compared to the stunningly beautiful streamlined trains of the '40's and '50's. But, I'm a trainfan; do Amtrak's 31M "non-fan" riders share my view? Here, I must let statistics give the answer.

Statistics tell us that for everyone 42 years and younger, Amtrak is all they have ever known. They share Amtrak's birth year and so completely missed the Century or Super Chief. This lets Amtrak "off the hook" in any comparison contest. Older people, who did experience them, probably associate the streamliners with their youth; and so are just as biased as we fans who love every streamlined car that has ever existed. Again, statistics must come to our rescue.

Apparently, the ever increasing ridership statistics indicate today's riders find Amtrak's passenger trains very much to their liking. Therefore; to my mind, the important question is not can we get along "without" Amtrak; but, let's find ways which permits Amtrak to improve it's trains to an extent which approaches what we associate with the "Golden Age".

Joe

V8s & Interstates would experience a miniscule increase in use.
Some hobby photographers would spend more time in scrapyards.
Less track kill of trespassers and motorists.
Some executive-level bureaucrats would experience short unemployment.
Mid-level managers and staffers would jump to transit agencies.
Many wage earners would experience long unemployment followed by 50% reduction in earnings.

I sincerely believe that if Amtrak had not been created, intercity passenger rail travel now would be at least triple what it currently is.

We would have used the resources for what was needed the most, leading to a viable HSR corridor. That would have ignited an explosion in demand. Where would commuter rail be, if we had not had a GoTransit? Where would light rail be, if San Diego had not built its trolley? Granted we would not have as many overnight trains, but you would be able to cover a whole lot of territory with daylight expresses.

ts1457

I've never before heard anyone say that without Amtrak, passenger growth would have been greater--which is what I think you're saying. That's a new one; but sounds like a an indefensible statement to me.

And I'd definitely like to know who you think might have provided this service which would have been triple the size of today's service. This is really an odd statement that needs clarification.

Joe

Three times very little ain't much.

ts1457 I'm curious how you figure that. In 1969 the railroads all were trying to shut down their passenger services. I have a hunch that had the AMTRAK compromise not been reached, there would be no intercity rail aside from the SF Peninsula and the NE Corridor (and maybe not even both of those).

ecweaver Wrote:
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> ts1457 I'm curious how you figure that. In 1969
> the railroads all were trying to shut down their
> passenger services. I have a hunch that had the
> AMTRAK compromise not been reached, there would be
> no intercity rail aside from the SF Peninsula and
> the NE Corridor (and maybe not even both of
> those).

Reread second paragraph.

1st off, someone posted a very similar thread on here something to the title of "What if Amtrak went away?" and this thread was deleted before it exploded with comments. I'm surprised this one has lasted longer, perhaps now is the time to delete this post before the comments get out of control.

2nd, ts1457 check your history again on passenger railroading & the creation of Amtrak. Your theory contradicts history.

Amtrak562 Wrote:
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> 2nd, ts1457 check your history again on passenger
> railroading & the creation of Amtrak. Your theory
> contradicts history.

I've been around and lived through it. Nonetheless, if history takes one path, it does not necessarily contradict a theory. If fact, I think it helps to support my theory.

Let's just go back to one of my examples. How much commuter rail do you think would be around today if GoTransit had not taken an innovative path and started up a new commuter train operation in an area that had been fallow for years?

Ditto on the San Diego LRV.

Thank you Joe for the time perspective. On a thread such as this I tended to wax nostalgic and wish for the days gone by and your mention of the new generation of train riders 42 years old and less is spot on.I am glad to read and see how so many view this topic. If this was posted before, I missed it and a thread like this will be response intensive which is good for thoughts and perspective like you offer to us older retired foamers like me who, deep in my heart,still miss the Super Chief, etc. Most noted among new Amtrak fans is Geno Dailey who has arguably one of the more complete web sites dedicated to all aspects of Amtrak.It is a color brochure in itself with trips, and reports and equipment images to satisfy any new railfan. Amtrak should thank this man for this website. Try www.trainweb.org and that should get you started.Geno has also posted and responded here on T.O. too. I also thank those of you who "railblogged" on this thread for your ideas and perspectives. I had never read something like this before and was glad it came on the site for a read. But,yes,it can get response heavy just like I am doing. Guilty as charged but enjoying the reads.

Phil Blommendahl
Getzville, NY

I'd say we'd have a much worse transportation problem than it is now, and 2, HSR in this country? YEAH RIGHT!

ProAmtrak Wrote:
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> I'd say we'd have a much worse transportation
> problem than it is now, and 2, HSR in this
> country? YEAH RIGHT!

Penn Central spearheaded the Metroliner Service, which I'd say qualify as our first attempt at modern "HSR." It was made possible because of Budd, who was able to manufacture the EMUs domestically. Why is this Californian the first to mention it in this thread? Shame on the rest of you. :-) I'll let the folks on the East Coast elaborate on the bankrupcty of Penn Central in 1970, and the creation of Amtrak in 1971.

Anyway, Amtrak continued the Metroliner after Penn Central, and Amtrak's Graham Claytor revived the Auto Train. Without Amtrak, the Metroliner probably wouldn't have evolved into the Acela/NE Regional service, and Auto Train would have been forgotten.

Perhaps a good example to discuss for this thread would be the fate of DRGW's Rio Grande Zephyr, which operated independently from Amtrak until 1983. Our culture's overindulgence with the automobile and the airplane would have surely killed intercity rail travel before the current passenger rail renaissance, had Amtrak or a similar federal entity not existed. That's just my humble opinion.

I'd still with the love of the automobile and airline travel and Amtrak not being created, it would've been a major transportation problem, and they'd say this and that and wouldn't do anything at Capitol Hill, that's how it's been and that's why they can't figure out the exact facts on why rail travel across this country is important, regional and LD!