Passenger Trains > How to reduce food service losses?

I took a trip from Chicago to San Diego last week, leaving Chicago on Friday the 13th.  It was a fairly lucky day as we left 5 minutes late on the Chief with a great crew.  Arrival in Fullerton was a bit late, but I made the connection to the 7:55 am train to SD with no problem.  A very good trip overall.

But...food is a major issue on trains these days.  The diner was fine.  Limited selections, but what they had was good and there was pride in presentation and service.  Very good.  The cafe was another matter.

By the middle of the afternoon on Saturday, before arrival in ABQ, the cafe began to run out of things.  Lots of things.  A happy hour was run after ABQ with $3 PBRs.  The attendant had 24 of them and they were gone in 45 minutes (maybe not so bad as we don't want folks drunk).  The PBR situation was indicative of the overall shortages, however.  By early evening the attendant was telling coach passengers to "come on down and see what I have left."  He was jovial and a good guy (I saw him once for an IPA on day one--those were gone on day 2).  But he had nothing to sell.  And since he ran out of beer, so did the diner.  No IPA with dinner on day 2, only Corona or Heineken.  So I had water, and Amtrak left a few bucks on the table.  They lost a few bucks all afternoon and evening many times over due to shortages.
 
Now, call me crazy, but if you are selling out of things well before arrival at the train's endpoint, there is a problem.  While I understand that storage space is limited, etc., this was not a full train the entire route.  It was maybe 65% full to KC, then 90% to Flagstaff, and we were told 100% to LA.  That feels about right.  The cafe should not have run out of so many items.  A few, sure.  I get it.  But virtually everything?  So we have an attendant who is getting paid in a non-revenue car, not generating any revenue because there is nothing to sell. 

Now, let's do some easy math.  Let's assume that 100 people did not get what they wanted 1 time.  Based on what I saw, that is a reasonable estimate.  Given the margins on the food sold, let's assign $5 to each lost sale.  For a beer, it is probably more.  For some food items, probably less.  So $500 a day in lost profit, times 2 (#3 and #4) times 365 equals $365,000.  Now, let's blow that out across the LD network....you get the point.  Stock the cars, reduce the losses.  Is this really that hard to do?  Maybe it is, and maybe I am missing the obvious.  Maybe not.

Really, Amtrak?  This is how you reduce food service losses?  Ugh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 09:47 by Chessie1963.

How do we find out if this was a problem of stocking this one train or if this is a regular occurance?  Does it happen on the eastbound train?

Marty Bernard

This is an all reserved train. So they have a head count in advance. There must be some sort of study on how much of each item is typically sold on any given trip. Its not like what isn't used is going to spoil. Just keep it for the next departure. Of course we are talking about Amtrak here. At least the diner experience seemed to be nice.

If you overstock the train, possibly some of the excess gets stolen by the staff.


When a service business is run as a bureaucracy, it's not likely to work too well.


And, the staff get paid the same, regardless of whether they arrange to have a few cases of beer purchased and placed on the train at ABQ, or whether they just sell what they have.  There's no incentive to do better.  Indeed, there's probably an incentive not to do too much, as the extra purchases need to be accounted for.


Meanwhile, the responsible executives are sitting in their faux-leather chairs in some distant city, far removed from customer interaction.


Little has changed in 40 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 10:08 by reindeerflame.

There are other threads which mention diners running out of many items by the second and third day.  That's likely to happen if there aren't provisions for restocking enroute, and if the company / employees would prefer to arrive with an empty larder.  No accounting for goods left, less paperwork to complete.

This isn't the 1800s. A cell phone call to Roy Rodgers or Wendy's could deliver 50 pre-pack salads, 20 buckets of fried chicken, and 100 Happy Meals, etc during the fuel and service stops in Florence SC, Albuquerque NM, Minot ND, etc. Or 10 cases of beer.

But that requires a culture which is focused on delivering a superior customer experience. Up and down the ladder, on the train, at the line manager's desk, and in HQ.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 10:12 by Lackawanna484.

if they have inventory left at the end they have to count it, close early to do it

MartyBernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do we find out if this was a problem of
> stocking this one train or if this is a regular
> occurance?  Does it happen on the eastbound
> train?
>
> Marty Bernard

I will say that it happened on a westbound Southwest Chief I was on as well last October! I forget exactly what was offered, but happy hour was not an hour!!!! They ran out of food to sell for this particular event.

Amtrak has put out a statement - as dictated by Congress or whatever - that they need to eliminate F&B costs. That's all well and good. But I've mentioned things before, and I am not going into a soap again. Amtrak's simple answer though, is how to reduce the cost - be it labor or cutting out salad or bread. They forget the other component - revenue. Where are the revenue opportunities? They are out there. Amtrak needs to identify them and capitalize on them. A happy hour works on certain trains (no free food, just a gathering and special prices for certain things). The Havre chicken on the Empire Builder works. The Vermonter lunch used to work when there was a LOT less patronage, I can't see how it wouldn't work now - even if it was offered just on weekends. Offering dinner on train 48 eastbound before arrival in NYC would likely be popular - dinner along the Hudson River especially on a Viewliner Diner! Suggestions could go on, but again, instead of Amtrak looking at REVENUE opportunities they immediately seek to figure out how to CUT costs. That has proven over and over and over to not be the answer. And how Amtrak can say they "promote a green environment" with the amount trash they produce by using disposable items in the diner is beyond my comprehension. And then sticking a trash can right in the middle of the Sightseer Lounge for a nice aroma has got to turn some people away from going down and buying something from the café. Is it that hard to put the trash cans IN the pre-built trash receptacles? 

I remember working as an engineer from SLO to Santa Barb on Atk. before they finally hired their own engine crews. On a few trips, my mother was in the hospital in Glendale so I would drop back and ride the cushions and go and see her. The next morning I would hop on and ride back to SBA. When we got there the fireman would be waiting with our orders and I would work back to SLO.

When I was riding east, I wasn't on duty so I would have a beer or cocktail. What I noticed was the attendant would give last call at Santa Sue and by the time we got to Chats, he was locked up & all done and gone. I asked Shorty, the Conductor who still worked for the SP, why they didn't stay open. He told me that was the way Atk did things. He said 5 minutes after they would arrive at LAUPT, the train was mty of attendants. Under the SP all the bartenders had to keep good records. When they got to work they received the keys to that car. They would check over the list and if everything was accounted for they would sign for it. They would then start setting up the car and get ready to serve the customers. When they got close to the end of their trip, they would start taking inventory but still stay open. By the time they they stopped, it would be done and they would turn in their keys and the SP would take inventory. They would turn in the money to the nickel and then would go home. 

Not much has changed.  I have used my Atk pass twice (free on any of the old SP lines) since I was sent one back when Atk took over. It sure isn't like it was, when I would go from SF to Santa Barb and back growing up. The trains even showed up on time. Atk was getting up to 2-3 hrs late before I left SLO and went to Dunsmuir. In Dunsmuir to K Falls freight pool we would deadhead a lot back to Dunsmuir from K Falls. It was around 10 at night and the bar car was giving last call. No coffee, nothing. By the time you would get to Doris you couldn't find an attendant anywhere.

I did take the "Canadian" with a girl friend from Toronto to  Vancouver in 86'. I took it from Vancouver to the east coast in 87' with a different gal and married her. I had reserved a compartment in the "Park Car" both times and it was great. They never ran out of anything in the food or booze department. The crew was friendly and I packed a few timetables from the SP to give out. I rode the head end from Thunder Bay, west for a bit. Then had to walk back thru the units and steam jenny back to the train. When I came east in 87' I rode the headend thru the spiral tunnels and that was interesting.

I feel sorry for the ATK people that want to keep the service up but it sounds like nothing has changed since they took over 40 years ago.


Nudge



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 12:45 by spnudge.

MartyBernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do we find out if this was a problem of
> stocking this one train or if this is a regular
> occurance?  Does it happen on the eastbound
> train?
>
> Marty Bernard


Oh, let's just have a study.  That will give us all the answers, right?

sums007 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MartyBernard Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How do we find out if this was a problem of
> > stocking this one train or if this is a regular
> > occurance?  Does it happen on the eastbound
> > train?
> >
> > Marty Bernard
>
>
> Oh, let's just have a study.  That will give us
> all the answers, right?


Actually, it would.  

Just remember what a study is.  You have a problem. You decide what data you need. You collect the data. You anyalise the data. You get your answer.

How's that study coming along which is supposed to look into Amtrak's $8mn to $12mn a year food & beverage losses?  Theft, disappearance of money and liquor, stuff like that.

It's been a few years since the IG mentioned it and Amtrak said it would study that problem

Amtrak just posted job openings this week for "Managers of Studies."  Twelve openings for the NEC.  One for the rest of the country.  Relocation benefits apply.

Okay, I must be out of my mind wading into this discussion...

If you've followed my posts and have come to "know" me, you know I try to explain things as best I can and try to keep it as matter-of-fact as I can..

I've been an LSA for a bit over 30yrs (3/4's of Amtrak's existence).  I worked LD trains for about 8yrs, and the Capitol Corridor since it's launch in 1991- safe to say my experience is, um, well rounded.      (Holy Moly, I looked the other day: I'm #16 on the national roster!!  Shouldn't I be dead by now?).

Closing early:  On the LD trains I worked (3&4 and 11&14 mostly) Amtrak wants us off the train ASP upon arrival.  Why is this?  Well, as an example: In Chicago the remaining stock is unloaded immediately at Union Station.  This allows several things to happen: the stock is inventoried and the amount I need to remit is determined before I leave the property and do so in Union Station (with the ticket clerks).  Savings?  The yard receives the trainset empty and can do with it what they will immediately.  A secure remittance office (for my collected $$) doesn't have to be duplicated in the yard.  They stop my pay ASAP.  And non-perishable stock can be handed off to departing trains, if needed, in Union Station- a life saver now and then!

Employees stealing excess stock:  (Really reindeerflame?  Could you possibly be more insulting?)  EVERYTHING is accounted for, not just revenue items- I even re-bag the unused condiments. Really.  They have a scale that can determine how many catsup packets were used- and it's amazingly accurate.  (I didn't believe it at first, but I've played with it and was impressed!)  

Running out of stock:  This issue is always a pain in the ass- sorry, no better way to say it.   It's one of those things that cycles over and over: Too much stock and you're throwing out perishables (Lost $$).  Run out and you have lost sales (Lost $$).  Management goes "Pro Service" and justifies the former- then is shocked by the losses, and swings the other way to "save money"- but leaves me with nothing to sell by the end of trip.  Complaints pile up and the cycle repeats..   Different managers have different philosophies about this and that just stirs the pot further!  
On my run I'm lucky- I pass the Oakland Commissary several times a day and can keep pretty close to demand (and with my seniority I pretty much stick to the same trains year after year w/o ever being "bumped"- so I know my costumers quite well.  I know what sells) 
On LD trains you don't have this luxury- start running out and you're kinda out of options.  Order 100 Big Macs to go?  Mickey wants to see the money first, has no way to deliver it, doesn't know WHERE to deliver it, and even if I get past all that: I have to then give it away- it's not an Amtrak product, and not something I can "sell".  Money-wise it's a complete loss.  Besides: I don't have the authority to spend money like that.  When we had On Board Service Chiefs that was their call- but that program was expensive.  And you had all these Chiefs ($$) whose job it was to make things right by giving away $$'s!  (I'm not knocking the Chief Program, I thought it was great- but it was an expense, no doubt!)

I'm not posting this to get into an argument defending these policies- I'm only offering an insight into why these things are what they are from the inside looking out.

SR Bush
Dutch Flat      

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How's that study coming along which is supposed to
> look into Amtrak's $8mn to $12mn a year food &
> beverage losses?  Theft, disappearance of money
> and liquor, stuff like that.
>
> It's been a few years since the IG mentioned it
> and Amtrak said it would study that problem

The whole POS (sorry - Point of Sale System) for F&B is so frustratingly old and frustrating to anyone trying to do the reconciliation in real time or as a review it is ridiculous. Don't spend money on studies. Amtrak's auditors can provide assistance and recommendations.

Spend money on a new POS system that not only tracks inventory automatically (e.g. bar coding), but also tightens the cash controls that a basic cash register (as currently exists or doesn't exist in the case of the diner) doesn't produce. So many times I've seen people turned away from dinner or café service on the eastbound Lake Shore Limited after it departs Albany. OPEN IT UP! Maybe some people from Albany to NYP would want to have dinner onboard before going to a show/program/meeting in NYC.

I know people who have booked a sleepers NYP to Alexandria, finished preparations for a meeting onboard, and gone to lunch or dinner before getting off the train in Alexandria or hopping off earlier in Washington DC - even though this is technically all "receive passengers" only.

What does this tell you, aside from the fact that such folks may be nuts - they want the extra time in a quiet space (e.g. sleeper setup as a day time room to get things done) and they want the advantage of a meal onboard. They don't care because more often than not - company is paying the bill. Why they don't take Acela Express - no clue other than they want more room?

There is no reason why a First Class Acela Express experience can not be had on other corridors throughout the country - those that extend out for the day. If you offered me the equivalent of a VIA "touring package" on the Adirondack where I'd have a comfortable leather seat, large window, and at-seat food service from an attendant - I'd go for it. Offer me a "day room" from Washington DC to NYP on the Silver Star or Silver Meteor as I left my Washington Meeting to catch the train home - I'd spring for it (well my company would). As long as I get dinner onboard after leaving Washington on the Silver Star, or lunch on the Crescent, or breakfast on the Silver Meteor.

Problem has always been, Amtrak does not look towards potential revenue. They just look for cuts. Gunn was toying of offering a coach, business class, and then a "premium" class for the long distance day trains. The "premium" service would have been utilizing the 2-1 Amfleets converted from former Metroliner First Class cars.

A steward in the diner should not be wandering the aisle to make change with a wad of cash. It's unsafe for the crew and his own integrity if it were to ever be questioned. I've long advocated pre-paid meal vouchers in the diner. It CAN be done through a lot of different means - be it pre-pay at time you make reservation or pre-pay through a pseudo vending machine onboard that would accept cash or credit. The long drawn out inventory control system involves way to much MANUAL paperwork. Let's just say I have not worked directly for Amtrak, but I have seen this process through from start to finish. As a person who has a career as a financial professional, there is TONS of room for improvement. Spend the money on a better way to keep track of what is sold and what is not sold - so you can do an FP&A off of that (Financial Planning and Analysis). 

The best people who could tell you how to increase revenue in an Amtrak diner or café - Amtrak stewards (or whatever they are called now) and waiters/waitresses. Front line folks are going to tell you how to increase revenue. If a retail operation is failing, first person I talk to - the clerks and cashiers. Then I match that story with what the owner or purchasing agent tells me.

What does Amtrak do more often than not - go after those on the front lines to cut costs. Cut out salads, bread, and any food that would be appetizing. Cutting your way to profitability doesn't work for passenger rail service. I thought that lesson was learned, but Amtrak continues to play with fire.

Open that upper Sightseer Lounge snack station from Denver to Glenwood Springs. Sell more things from the Pacific Parlor Car. Get the souvenirs out to sell in the Pacific Parlor Car. I can't tell you how many people go to look for souvenirs in the case only to find a limited or NO stock available.

Do wine and cheese tastings on all afternoon LD trains - Superliners and single level trains - and have people pay. But don't do a half @$$ program. Make it break even to being profitable. Sell things afterwards.

Have premium and non-premium events.








  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 23:16 by jp1822.

BoilingMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay, I must be out of my mind wading into this
> discussion...
>
> If you've followed my posts and have come to
> "know" me, you know I try to explain things as
> best I can and try to keep it as matter-of-fact
> as I can..
>
> I've been an LSA for a bit over 30yrs (3/4's of
> Amtrak's existence).  I worked LD trains for
> about 8yrs, and the Capitol Corridor since it's
> launch in 1991- safe to say my experience is, um,
> well rounded.      (Holy Moly, I looked the
> other day: I'm #16 on the national roster!! 
> Shouldn't I be dead by now?).
>
> Closing early:  On the LD trains I worked (3&4
> and 11&14 mostly) Amtrak wants us off the train
> ASP upon arrival.  Why is this?  Well, as an
> example: In Chicago the remaining stock is
> unloaded immediately at Union Station.  This
> allows several things to happen: the stock
> is inventoried and the amount I need to remit is
> determined before I leave the property and do so
> in Union Station (with the ticket clerks). 
> Savings?  The yard receives the trainset empty
> and can do with it what they will immediately.  A
> secure remittance office (for my collected $$)
> doesn't have to be duplicated in the yard.  They
> stop my pay ASAP.  And non-perishable stock can
> be handed off to departing trains, if needed, in
> Union Station- a life saver now and then!
>
> Employees stealing excess stock:
>  (Really reindeerflame?  Could you possibly be
> more insulting?)  EVERYTHING is accounted for,
> not just revenue items- I even re-bag the unused
> condiments. Really.  They have a scale that can
> determine how many catsup packets were used- and
> it's amazingly accurate.  (I didn't believe it at
> first, but I've played with it and was
> impressed!)  
>
> Running out of stock:  This issue is always a
> pain in the ass- sorry, no better way to say
> it.   It's one of those things that cycles over
> and over: Too much stock and you're throwing out
> perishables (Lost $$).  Run out and you have lost
> sales (Lost $$).  Management goes "Pro Service"
> and justifies the former- then is shocked by the
> losses, and swings the other way to "save money"-
> but leaves me with nothing to sell by the end of
> trip.  Complaints pile up and the cycle
> repeats..   Different managers have different
> philosophies about this and that just stirs the
> pot further!  
> On my run I'm lucky- I pass the Oakland Commissary
> several times a day and can keep pretty close to
> demand (and with my seniority I pretty much stick
> to the same trains year after year w/o ever being
> "bumped"- so I know my costumers quite well.  I
> know what sells) 
> On LD trains you don't have this luxury- start
> running out and you're kinda out of options. 
> Order 100 Big Macs to go?  Mickey wants to see
> the money first, has no way to deliver it, doesn't
> know WHERE to deliver it, and even if I get past
> all that: I have to then give it away- it's not
> an Amtrak product, and not something I can
> "sell".  Money-wise it's a complete loss. 
> Besides: I don't have the authority to spend money
> like that.  When we had On Board Service Chiefs
> that was their call- but that program was
> expensive.  And you had all these Chiefs ($$)
> whose job it was to make things right by giving
> away $$'s!  (I'm not knocking the Chief Program,
> I thought it was great- but it was an expense, no
> doubt!)
>
> I'm not posting this to get into an argument
> defending these policies- I'm only offering an
> insight into why these things are what they are
> from the inside looking out.
>
> SR Bush
> Dutch Flat      

And this is what I am talking about - Amtrak needs to gather your comments - how to make things better, from increasing revenue to running out of stock, to re-stocking, to how your job can be made easier through automation at the end of the trip. I know that everything has to be counted, but there are better ways to do this on a real-time basis than you weighing it or counting it one by one. There are systems, rather, that could help the process. Instead of spending all that time counting and filling out paperwork, you should be filling out a comment sheet on where Amtrak missed F&B opportunities so it can be corrected going forward. But that would be too logical.

reindeerflame Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you overstock the train, possibly some of the
> excess gets stolen by the staff.
>
>
> When a service business is run as a bureaucracy,
> it's not likely to work too well.
>
>
> And, the staff get paid the same, regardless of
> whether they arrange to have a few cases of beer
> purchased and placed on the train at ABQ, or
> whether they just sell what they have.  There's
> no incentive to do better.  Indeed, there's
> probably an incentive not to do too much, as the
> extra purchases need to be accounted for.
>
>
> Meanwhile, the responsible executives are sitting
> in their faux-leather chairs in some distant city,
> far removed from customer interaction.
>
>
> Little has changed in 40 years.

Incentives to sell more but also be re-stocked if a good incentive program works is also key!

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

 "Again, Amtrak's system invites theft - be it money or food/beverages."

You begin with this statement?! 

This (LSA) is what I do for a living.  It has been my career, and I've taken pride in it- please explain this statement to me.  How is it that I am being invited to steal cash and food/beverages? 
Can you be more specific?

SR Bush- Amtrak LSA

(Please answer straight away: the Blackstone K-36's will be out soon...     I could use a few extra bucks!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 20:26 by BoilingMan.

My feeling is that Amtrak has not given LSAs the proper tools of the 21st century to help them be more efficient. Instead they have to labor over "the counting process" and be in fear there could be an error. I am actually on your side because I think Amtrak has not provided enough security for its own staff and leaves it open so they can do finger pointing as needed for certain excuses. 

Have F&B staff gone out of their way to make passengers happy - yes. I was on the Southwest Chief last year and the LSA was confronted with expired milk - first morning out. The LSA had to plead with the conductor to call ahead to LaJunta to get the stationmaster to go out and pickup milk. And then she had to keep the spoiled milk onboard for the ENTIRE trip so she could hand it over to "inventory control" as she put it. I had no dount she would have to do this. I even offered to write a letter on her behalf to help substantiate the situation she was confronted with. She did an awesome job in correcting the problem. Another LSA *could* have easily said to passengers - "sorry, no more coffee today or the following as we have no milk." Have there been cases of theft on behalf of the F&B staff - yes.

The point I am trying to make is that Amtrak has not kept up with cash control technology and has made it a laborious process for the LSAs. A miscount of ending inventory could be catastrophic - be it positive or negative.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/15 23:22 by jp1822.

Good points guys and being a supporter of Amtrak it sucks they're doing this crap, I still say it's another attempt by Congress to destroy Amtrak!

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