Passenger Trains > LIRR's new cars can't use PTC

WNYC has a report tonight that the incoming order of 256 new cars for Long Island Rail Road are not configured for Positive Train Control. The brief mention said the parent authority is investigating how this happened.

No link yet, should be up on Tuesday

"Are not configured for" can mean a lot of things. Maybe they just mean they're not presently equipped with PTC.

If the procurement process is anything like out here in Cal, they were probably designed and ordered before PTC became mandated.

It seems Kawasaki, the buider, the MTA, and the feds all had a finger in this. The equipment will take about double the space allotted in the design.

Newsday:

The railroad's specifications for 256 new M9 electric trains -- set to roll out in 2018 -- designated 8 cubic feet per car for positive train control, or PTC. But LIRR officials recently acknowledged that the hardware requires 17 cubic feet per car -- more than twice the allotted amount.Jim Allen, LIRR director of new rolling stock, acknowledged at a meeting last month of the MTA board's LIRR committee that the miscalculation was a "significant issue."
Newsday:  Cars designed in 2013

The M-9 will look a little different than the M-7. Body contour more like an M-8.

So I guess they will have to sacrifice two seats in each car with a cab to put in an additional equipment cabinet. And it will cost them some money to make the mods.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems Kawasaki, the buider, the MTA, and the
> feds all had a finger in this. The equipment will
> take about double the space allotted in the
> design.
>
> Newsday:
>
> The railroad's specifications for 256 new M9
> electric trains -- set to roll out in 2018 --
> designated 8 cubic feet per car for positive train
> control, or PTC. But LIRR officials recently
> acknowledged that the hardware requires 17 cubic
> feet per car -- more than twice the allotted
> amount.Jim Allen, LIRR director of new rolling
> stock, acknowledged at a meeting last month of the
> MTA board's LIRR committee that the miscalculation
> was a "significant issue."
> Newsday:  Cars designed in 2013

The M-7's have electrical lockers behind the full-width cabs that take up what would otherwise be a seat row.
The M-9 had the components rearranged and compacted to eliminate it and provide 4 or 5 more seats. Maybe that plan is out the window. The first several cars are under construct in in Kobe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/15 07:06 by joemvcnj.

That whole project is a waste.  The M-3's have at least another 10 years left on them.

BTW, what extra equipment do they need?  This isn't the 1960's...we don't need discrete relays and vacuum tubes to make this stuff work.  As far as I am aware, aside from some extra antennas all of the earlier ACSES capacility was integrated into the cab signaling hardware.  The Arrow III's and who knows how many NJT cab cars were both ACSES equipped without needing to sacrifice seats.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The M-7's have electrical lockers behind the
> full-width cabs that take up what would otherwise
> be a seat row.
> The M-9 had the components rearranged and
> compacted to eliminate it and provide 4 or 5 more
> seats. Maybe that plan is out the window. The
> first several cars are under construct in in Kobe.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/15 10:29 by mbrotzman.

The LIRR are spoiled brats. They have deliberately run the M-3's into the ground, and MTA took the bait. MN's M-3A's have an MDBF that is several times that of the LIRR. 
What they should be doing is getting rid of the Super Steel junk and expand their diesel coach fleet. But they have no plans for that for another 10 - 15 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/15 10:19 by joemvcnj.

Try to get the entire story before ranting.  MTA makes it very clear that there is no screwup; at the time of the original design, the PTC system had not been decided upon, so they guessed at the space needs.  Now that they have selected their PTC system (ACSES), the design of the cars will undergo a minor change to accomodate it. Except for a prototype or two, the cars are far from serial production. No lost time or money. End of story.  The new cars will be needed, in part, to equip LIRR for the opening of GCT service.

PRR1361 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try to get the entire story before ranting.  MTA
> makes it very clear that there is no screwup; at
> the time of the original design, the PTC system
> had not been decided upon, so they guessed at the
> space needs.  Now that they have selected their
> PTC system (ACSES), the design of the cars will
> undergo a minor change to accomodate it. Except
> for a prototype or two, the cars are far from
> serial production. No lost time or money. End of
> story.  The new cars will be needed, in part, to
> equip LIRR for the opening of GCT service.

Well stated!

PRR1361 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try to get the entire story before ranting.  MTA
> makes it very clear that there is no screwup; at
> the time of the original design, the PTC system
> had not been decided upon, so they guessed at the
> space needs.  Now that they have selected their
> PTC system (ACSES), the design of the cars will
> undergo a minor change to accomodate it. Except
> for a prototype or two, the cars are far from
> serial production. No lost time or money. End of
> story.  The new cars will be needed, in part, to
> equip LIRR for the opening of GCT service.

So, the original source report and the Newsday story are correct?

Design changes will be necessary to conform the cars to the PTC / ACSES requirements. That's not unusual in situations where a 2-3-4 year lead time is necessary. And the purpose of building a few protoypes is to see how the design works in real life / real time operations.

The cars will perform fine with the modest changes, it's not like they're six inches too fat and won't tilt...

ESA won't happen until 2023 at the earliest.

So, what does that change? Those cars will be delivered at the end of the order.