Passenger Trains > Amtrak Road Foreman violates Hours of Service

On 23MAY2017, an Amtrak Road Foreman of Engines, relieving an assigned
engineer who was not qualified on territory, violated the Federal Hours of Service
law while operating the train into Chicago Union Station. Further information
Is not disclosed here for privacy reasons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/17 23:44 by GenePoon.

Perfectly legal IF management ordered the RFE to do so, then reported it to the FRA, then paid the fine. Sounds like Amtrak is habitually using RFEs to fill engineer spots, most likely a violation of the CBA in place. I hope the union is tracking and time slipping the company for every incident.

The FRA knows. It wasn't the company who notified them, but it still can do so.

The fine for such a violation is a hefty one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/17 23:44 by GenePoon.

trainjunkie Wrote:
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> Perfectly legal IF management ordered the RFE to
> do so, then reported it to the FRA, then paid the
> fine.

Funny, why would a fine have to be paid for something that is "Perfectly legal"?

Why would anyone care ?

jst3751 Wrote:
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> Funny, why would a fine have to be paid for
> something that is "Perfectly legal"?

Pay-to-play is legal. It's built-in to the HOS law. Not everything that is legal is free. Shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend.

Some contracts work the same way. Voluntary overtime starts at 1.5x base pay, and moves to 2x. Forced overtime starts at 2x, and goes to 2.5x. Work in a seventh consecutive 24 hour period starts at 2x, etc.

Nothing wrong with that. It causes employers to maintain adequate staffing, and sufficient extra board depth.

trainjunkie Wrote:
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> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Funny, why would a fine have to be paid for
> > something that is "Perfectly legal"?
>
> Pay-to-play is legal. It's built-in to the HOS
> law. Not everything that is legal is free.
> Shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend.

The fine is automatic for any violation, even those "allowed" under the regulations, such as in an emergency situation. The carrier is required to report the violation and pay the fine. If the FRA determines the violation was not a legitimate emergency situation (poor planning isn't an emergency, for example) the fine can be significantly increased.

Hold him or her accountable, just like they would to us.

Posted from Android

The hours of service is there for a reason. To have a person as rested as possible AND not working over 12 hours.


Nudge

I think I will wait for the facts and circumstances to develop before I rush to judgement, but apparently not all T/O members will do so.

Norm

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar

Sirsonic Wrote:
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> trainjunkie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > jst3751 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Funny, why would a fine have to be paid for
> > > something that is "Perfectly legal"?
> >
> > Pay-to-play is legal. It's built-in to the HOS
> > law. Not everything that is legal is free.
> > Shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend.
>
> The fine is automatic for any violation, even
> those "allowed" under the regulations, such as in
> an emergency situation. The carrier is required to
> report the violation and pay the fine. If the FRA
> determines the violation was not a legitimate
> emergency situation (poor planning isn't an
> emergency, for example) the fine can be
> significantly increased.

If the RFE was running the train on account of no rested crews, and no depth in the extra board, AND had done so regularly in the past, what might be the amount of a significantly increased fine?

I'm wondering whether somebody at Amtrak decided that having this RFE run a train once every two weeks, almost on a schedule, outweighed the cost of hiring an additional person for the extra board. Not unlike UPS factoring in two and three tickets a day per truck for blocking traffic while making deliveries. Just a cost of doing business.

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Funny, why would a fine have to be paid for
> > something that is "Perfectly legal"?
>
> Pay-to-play is legal. It's built-in to the HOS
> law. Not everything that is legal is free.
> Shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend.

Please check the dictionairy for the definition of the words legal and allowed. They are 2 different meanings. Just because something is allowed does not make it legal. In this case, it seems the wording is along the lines of "you are allowed to break the law if and if and if" But you see, it is still illegal and considered breaking the law.

So while paying to perform an illegal act is allowed with consequences, it is still an illegal act.

 

Look up the word "if".

462pacific Wrote:
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> Why would anyone care ?

Maybe because it's a federal law.

I guess the big question is how far over the HOS was the RFE?

I get that one minute over 12 hours is a violation but the RFE bringing in a train that is 5 minutes over is not nearly as egregious as being one hour over, two hours over etc.
Just how long was it?

Gary

Posted from iPhone

Limited-Clear Wrote:
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> 462pacific Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why would anyone care ?
>
> Maybe because it's a federal law.

Lots of federal laws are ignored with impunity, and without penalty. Federal marijuana laws in Colorado, Washington State, District of Columbia, and several more. Even banks have been cleared to process transactions in some places, in clear violation of federal anti-money laundering and criminal proceeds rules.

The government decides to ignore or not defend some laws (like Defense of Marriage), and rigidly enforce other laws. Like deporting somebody for the crime of coming here illegally 20 years ago and holding a job, paying taxes, etc.

THE BIG PICTURE is if Amtrak is ROUTINELY using RFEs to relieve crews as a reason to have understaffed T&E crews on the boards to be rested and if paying a fine is cheaper than paying for a fully staffed rested T&E extra board then Amtrak is going to keep paying the fines ... and if that's the case what needs to be changed by the FRA is to limit the PLANNED numerous occurances of using an RFE as a relief within a stated period of time ... whatever it is ... a month, 3 months, 6 months and statute it as an ILLEGAL PRACTICE if the occurrances exceed those time limits ...

GenePoon Wrote:
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> On 23MAY2017, an Amtrak Road Foreman of Engines,
> relieving an assigned
> engineer who was not qualified on territory,

I think the word should have been "piloting" an unqualified engineer.
G

Unless the unqualified crew member died in the law while waiting for relief by the RFE.

ExSPCondr Wrote:
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> GenePoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On 23MAY2017, an Amtrak Road Foreman of
> Engines,
> > relieving an assigned
> > engineer who was not qualified on territory,
>
> I think the word should have been "piloting" an
> unqualified engineer.
> G

Posted from Android