Passenger Trains > Back to the Future: Amtrak Considers Economy Seating (Again!)

Reuters reports Amtrak CEO says Amtrak considering less comfortable economy seating.
Of course, they once had 84 seat coaches running on the NEC when Graham Claytor was CEO.
Here's the link, which has other positive news on budget.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-amtrak-idUSKBN19X2UJ

Has been discussed on a couple of previous posts on the passenger board. It's worth noting that today's 72-seat Amfleet I cars have the same seat pitch as they did when the had 84 seats. Amtrak just removed some in the Capstone rebuild program to accommodate ADA-compliant restrooms and more luggage racks. It's hard to how reducing seat pitch on existing cars would really help given that relatively few trains sell out completely.

Dave

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has been discussed on a couple of previous posts
> on the passenger board. It's worth noting that
> today's 72-seat Amfleet I cars have the same seat
> pitch as they did when the had 84 seats. Amtrak
> just removed some in the Capstone rebuild program
> to accommodate ADA-compliant restrooms and more
> luggage racks. It's hard to how reducing seat
> pitch on existing cars would really help given
> that relatively few trains sell out completely.
>
> Dave

Increasing the seating in cars could allow for shorter consists, thereby saving $$.

Presumably the Cramfleet would be sold at a lower price point, i.e., losing money on every sale, but making it up in volume.

Paul Wilson
Arlington, VA

Yeah Great Editing.....great journalism.. NOT 300 TRAINS A YEAR.. What Buffoon......

"Amtrak had a record 31.3 million passengers last year, with more than one-third of them in the Northeast Corridor. It operates an average of 300 trains a year on 21,300 miles of tracks, serving 500 destinations in 46 states."

Economy seating seems like an attempt to compete with discount bus operators. I actually think it's a good idea to compete for traffic on short segments and in college town markets.

Reducing seat pitch is an option. Going to 2x3 in Amcram is another option. In Japan regular seating for high-speed trains in economy is almost always 2x3.

For airliners, the ultimate limit on seat pitch or seat width is evacuation requirements. Airliners have only so many doors, and it must be possible to evacuate everyone within a finite amount of time. I don't believe Amtrak has that constraint.

I agree that there is a price-sensitive segment of the market that favors bus over Amtrak. Have seen it in my own family.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/17 13:32 by ctillnc.

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has been discussed on a couple of previous posts
> on the passenger board. It's worth noting that
> today's 72-seat Amfleet I cars have the same seat
> pitch as they did when the had 84 seats. Amtrak
> just removed some in the Capstone rebuild program
> to accommodate ADA-compliant restrooms and more
> luggage racks. It's hard to how reducing seat
> pitch on existing cars would really help given
> that relatively few trains sell out completely.

The problem here is that Amtrak modified the cars during the Capstone rebuilding program by adding an ADA restroom and (I assume) ADA wheelchair tie down spots. This means it probably impossible to convert the cars back to the original 84 seat seating capacity without going against the ADA law. Had the cars remained in their "original" configuration they would have been "grandfathed" in under the ADA law. As delivered the Amfleet 1 cars had wheelchair spots in the Food Service cars only.


>
> Dave

ctillnc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...In Japan regular seating
> for high-speed trains in economy is almost always
> 2x3.

Some are even 3x3. This is one of the bi-level Shinkansen trainsets.

---

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ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DavidP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has been discussed on a couple of previous
> posts
> > on the passenger board. It's worth noting that
> > today's 72-seat Amfleet I cars have the same
> seat
> > pitch as they did when the had 84 seats.
> Amtrak
> > just removed some in the Capstone rebuild
> program
> > to accommodate ADA-compliant restrooms and more
> > luggage racks. It's hard to how reducing seat
> > pitch on existing cars would really help given
> > that relatively few trains sell out completely.
>
> >
> > Dave
>
> Increasing the seating in cars could allow for
> shorter consists, thereby saving $$.

In an age where most Americans are "expanding in the waist line" Amtrak scores points by offering comfortable and spacious seating. Why screw it up on the NEC with this idea of "economy seating?" Amtrak's got a good thing going with its seating - in general. The commuter railroads have even got out of offering the dreaded "middle seat." This is the last thing Amtrak needs.

I have a hard time believing that if Amtrak did reduce the seat pitch, and cram in more seats, they would "lower the ticket price." And this would only yield about 12 additional seats per car. Current Northeast Corridor trains are not at sellout rates and there's enough versatility that people can select another train. Besides, most NEC Regional trains operate with at most six coach class cars and one business class car. Add in the cafe car and there's the eight car consist. Most are six or seven, with Keystones being five car consists. If Amtrak hit sellout rates constantly with its trains on the NEC then maybe this would make sense. Further, six coaches with 12 additional seats yields 72 seats (NOT a number equal or greater than 84!). It would be a really tough call to remove ONE coach - especially when some consists are smaller than eight cars.... And ONE coach being taken off is going to save that much money? Anybody got hard costs on that one? If they pulled a coach, would Amtrak really "park it" or just re-distribute it to another train in the system? Seems like this record already played. Amtrak "parked coaches" before only to have to spend millions to reactivated the cars within five years. 

Amtrak would, in my opinion, be foolish to mess with the coach class seats when this is often a major decision factor for folks to either drive, take the bus, or fly.

Amtrak would also be pulling a lot of coaches to do these modifications - on a VERY old fleet to begin with!

If they want more money, wouldn't Amtrak have better luck trying to create a "premiere" service class on their trains? Leave business and coach class, but how about creating a ”premiere class" on Regionals that offer your 2x1 leather seating and food service (ala Metroliner first class service similar to Acela Express). Create a similar experience on some of the "long distance day trains.” Sometimes it is even hard to figure out what the difference is between coach and business class, other than free drinks and a guaranteed seat.

Economy seating would save Amtrak money because they would have less cars to haul around? At most, I can't see where it would save more than one coach. Is that really going to break the bank, let alone pay for modifications of the Amfleet? When would they break even on their ROI? 

Create a a better experience with a "premiere class." Amtrak also doesn't get that many business folks that ride the Regionals on the NEC are also looking more for seating with tables and technology hookups. They also don't want to walk through four cars and wait on the cafe line - wasting precious time! The company is paying for the ticket. So why downsize when the higher end revenue is likely being missed more so. 

Amtrak should start asking passengers what they want.