Passenger Trains > Central Region Genl Order: Reminders to Engr of Speed Restriction

Probably not directly a result of the recent nearly-disastrous overspeed by
the Southwest Chief in New Mexico (over 70mph through a 40mph curve, not derailing
but resulting in track damage and injuries to passengers and crew); but undoubtedly
issued with that incident in mind, Conductors are now REQUIRED to remind Engineers
of specific permanent curve, bridge and tunnel speed restrictions in a huge list
contained in a new Central Region General Order.

This is in addition to previous requrirements to remind of temporary speed restrictions.

If despite the reminder, Engineer does not take action in compliance, a qualified
person must take action to ensure compliance.

General Order 2017-11 was effective Tuesday, October 3, 2017. The list of speed
restrictions for which reminders to Engineers are now mandatory is about 12 1/2
pages long and covers the entire Amtrak Central Region territory.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/17 00:33 by GenePoon.

when And where did the overspeed occur?

The general order has been cancelled already.

Posted from Android

If the engineer, looking out the front window where he/she can see all the
mileposts and wayside signs, does not know where he is how is the conductor
supposed to know where he is?

Typical knee jerk nonsense we have come to expect.

Yup. After ONE DAY:


> Effective 00:01, Wednesday, October 4, 2017

> I. Central Region General Order 2017-11 is cancelled.

> Morrell Savoy
> Vice President
> Central Region

Rules regarding reminders for TEMPORARY speed restrictions remain in effect.
One wonders...doesn't the ENGINEER have tne required ETTs and bulletins
regarding permament speed restrictions...AND familiarity with the territory?

Even more funny is why it was cancelled...

Full of errors! Imagine that...

Amtrak Company Officer's in charge of issuing the bulletin don't even know the speed limits of their own trains...

A knee jerk reaction after more than 20 people called the 800 number asking that the engineer slow down.. This after hitting a 40 something curve at over 70 mph west of MP 736 on the ATSF... Hit the curve so hard it moved it out of alignment and BNSF had to repair the track.

Would have made Philly look like a test run if those Supers had turned over... Unsafe at any speed.

probably a waste of resources

> hitting a 40 something curve at over 70 mph west of MP 736 on the ATSF

Wow, those passengers are lucky. Some other railroad under those conditions, and they'd be in the ditch.

PC1974 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unsafe at any
> speed.


Uhhhh... ok. More like unsafe over safe speed. Retirement must be a joy.

"Unsafe at any speed".....not true in this case, and certainly not true in the infamous Corvair case, but the jury agreed.

20 calls from the train to complain about the hogger......wonder if that has ever happened before?

AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

agentatascadero Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Unsafe at any speed".....not true in this case,
> and certainly not true in the infamous Corvair
> case, but the jury agreed.
>
> 20 calls from the train to complain about the
> hogger......wonder if that has ever happened
> before?
>
> AA

Most likely, yes.

Put ACSES on all tracks and locomotives everywhere
in the US.

Those who disagree, please give me good reasons
why this should not be done ASAP. And please
do not say, :It costs too much," when this
country's government and business leaders can
always find plenty of money for everything they
think is important.

In the mean time, it would be very interesting
to learn why the engineer ran that train so fast.
We all deserve to know this info.

Y’all can keep your ACSES, come back when you can get it installed and operating properly and all of your own trackage first. Maybe learning to properly operate on the railroads which actually own the trackage which y’all operate over would help too....

By the way most railroads are having something called PTC forced down their throats.


Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Put ACSES on all tracks and locomotives everywhere
>
> in the US.
>
> Those who disagree, please give me good reasons
> why this should not be done ASAP. And please
> do not say, :It costs too much," when this
> country's government and business leaders can
> always find plenty of money for everything they
> think is important.
>
> In the mean time, it would be very interesting
> to learn why the engineer ran that train so fast.
> We all deserve to know this info.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/17 17:38 by jointauthority.

jointauthority Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Y’all can keep your ACSES, come back when you
> can get it installed and operating properly and
> all of your own trackage first. Maybe learning to
> properly operate on the railroads which actually
> own the trackage which y’all operate over would
> help too....
>
>
> Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Put ACSES on all tracks and locomotives
> everywhere
> >
> > in the US.
> >
> > Those who disagree, please give me good reasons
> > why this should not be done ASAP. And please
> > do not say, :It costs too much," when this
> > country's government and business leaders can
> > always find plenty of money for everything they
>
> > think is important.
> >
> > In the mean time, it would be very interesting
> > to learn why the engineer ran that train so
> fast.
> > We all deserve to know this info.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Sir --
From what I read, ACSES has been operating on the
NEC for some years now, and qualifies as PTC under
the new regs. Are you saying that ACSES does not
work reliably? I had read that ACSES works well
and, unlike the current GPS-based PTC systems now
being installed and used, is based on track circuity
and is quite reliable and uses off-the-shelf and
mature technology -- unlike the aforementioned PTC
technology now being installed and used.

Please enlighten me and us about what is wrong with
ACSES. Thank you.

Yes, all engineers must always operate their trains
properly. ACSES -- and all PTC systems -- are
supposed to activate when engineers make mistakes.

Well obviously it didn’t work too great at Frankfurt Jct did it?

Oh right, Amtrak didn’t bother to properly program it did they?

But yes, come force your ACSES on us....

PTC actually works pretty decently, I’ve never run on your ACSES, but then again I don’t run on your property. Still doubt ACSES is flawless, even if properly programmed. It’s our railroad, our rules. Please don’t try to force more stuff on us because your crews can’t follow our rules and need more safety nets.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/17 18:01 by jointauthority.

I'm glad the GO was cancelled.

This would have been ridiculous. Why don't they just put the Conductor up on the head-end and he can do what the Assistant Engineer used to do before most of those jobs were abolished? Having to remind the engineer of both temporary AND permanent restrictions would pretty much take him away from all his other responsibilities.

Would this mean that engineers would no longer have to be qualified over a specific territory and all responsibility now would fall on the Conductor? Does this take all the burden off the Road Foreman in signing off an engineer as "qualified"?

If so, what a deal!

I was under the impression that being qualified meant you knew where the permanent restrictions were. For some of these guys who are clueless and slow down depending on whether or not they see a speed board, let's just hope all the speed boards are intact and not laying off to the side of the right-of-way in the ditch!

Uphill slow, downhill fast, labor savings first, safety last!

This is probably a direct result of the situation you described.

Are the Superliners more unstable than the ATSF Hi-levels ?

PC1974 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even more funny is why it was cancelled...
>
> Full of errors! Imagine that...
>
> Amtrak Company Officer's in charge of issuing the
> bulletin don't even know the speed limits of their
> own trains...
>
> A knee jerk reaction after more than 20 people
> called the 800 number asking that the engineer
> slow down.. This after hitting a 40 something
> curve at over 70 mph west of MP 736 on the ATSF...
> Hit the curve so hard it moved it out of
> alignment and BNSF had to repair the track.
>
> Would have made Philly look like a test run if
> those Supers had turned over... Unsafe at any
> speed.

#3 or #4 and what date? I was on #3 last Tuesday (9/26) and all was well except for usual slow track on the Raton Sub.

Is there general knowledge of this incident in a news item or just within Amtrak offices and now on TO?

BTW, MP 736 is between Wagon Mound and Shoemaker.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/17 19:50 by Cumbresfan.

It seems Amtrak should attend to some of the lessons the airlines have learned regarding "cockpit management" and burdening the aircrews with bureaucratic activities that detract from their primary function of flying the aircraft, monitoring the systems and looking out the window once in a while. Too many checklists = less safety.

jointauthority Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well obviously it didn’t work too great at Frankfurt Jct did it?
> Oh right, Amtrak didn’t bother to properly program it did they?
> But yes, come force your ACSES on us....

Train 188's wreck happened some number of weeks before ASCES was installed on that section of the NEC.
It is an overlay on the ATC system, which uses signal indication to enforce speed limits in certain areas, which works fine, and has for decades.

Amtrak management made a conscious decision to not install it eastbound on that curve near where 188's wreck happened, though was in effect westbound. FRA forced Amtrak to implement it eastbound as a condition to reopening the NEC after 4 days. It means someone(s) spending some time in a signal box making the adjustments, and testing all permutations of signals indications and routing possibilities.

MN had an almost identical wreck at Spuyten Duyvil a few years ago for the same reason. They have now installed ATC speed restrictions through out their system, which affected their timetables.

You don't hear much about that due to the PTC media frenzy driven by NTSB.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/17 04:15 by joemvcnj.