Passenger Trains > Amtrak will not allow NJT to operate non-PTC

The way I read this article is that Amtrak will not allow NJ Transit equipment to operate into New York unless it is PTC equipped after 12/31/2018.


http://www.fox5ny.com/news/nj-transit-trains-could-be-banned-from-ny

Posted from Android

But yet they can operate over other railroads without PTC themselves right now? Oh wait I forgot they’re going to stop service without PTC now. Hopefully now freight railroads only install PTC if freight operations call for it and make Amtrak pay for any installation and operation of PTC on any territory not required for freight traffic

Posted from iPhone

The requirement to install PTC is an unfunded federal mandate. This huge expense should be borne by the government, not the railroads.

Updates to air traffic control systems and other improvements in air travel safety are paid for by the FAA. Why can't the FRA pay for the installation of PTC? As a taxpayer this REALLY annoys me.

seaboardc30-7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The requirement to install PTC is an unfunded
> federal mandate. This huge expense should be
> borne by the government, not the railroads.
>
> Updates to air traffic control systems and other
> improvements in air travel safety are paid for by
> the FAA. Why can't the FRA pay for the
> installation of PTC? As a taxpayer this REALLY
> annoys me.

I’m with you on the need for more public investment in rail infrastructure. However, we should remember every safety regulation, no matter how sensible, is an unfunded mandate of sorts. Airlines are required to staff a certain number of flight attendants, put life vests under the seats, and de-ice planes in certain weather conditions. Aren’t these also unfounded mandates? Two generations ago the ICC determined that trains could only operate at 80mph or more if they had ATS or cab signals - wasn’t that an unfunded mandate? What about lifeboat requirements for ships? Remember that PTC isn’t only required for passenger lines, but also for lines carrying hazardous freight. The real question is how costs should be shared on mixed use rail lines in a way that doesn’t make hosting passenger services so onerous that the railroads spend all their energy trying to kill it.

Dave

Seat belts and collapsible steering columns were unfunded mandates on auto makers.

The 21 year old national drinking age was a negative incentive. If your state don't raise the age, you don't get this pot of federal highway money.

Rep Jim Howard moved that law.

Posted from Android

And from what I have been able to figure out is PTC kind of works ok most of the time. There are more things to cause problems with it than with Air Traffic Control on aircraft.
It looks easy on paper until things that affect wired and wireless parts are added in causing problems. As far as the FAA end of things, how much do airlines pay in fees to state, city, and federal taxes in one way or another? Far from public funded for sure and the airlines are under the thumb of regulations far above what the railroads have.

Aviation is going through a similar thing right now - it is called ADS-B. It uses GPS to report position instead of radar. It is a much better system, but like PTC, it is unfunded and left to the aircraft owners to pay for upgrades before the January 1, 2020 deadline. It some cases, the equipment will cost more than the aircraft is worth.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/


seaboardc30-7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The requirement to install PTC is an unfunded
> federal mandate. This huge expense should be
> borne by the government, not the railroads.
>
> Updates to air traffic control systems and other
> improvements in air travel safety are paid for by
> the FAA. Why can't the FRA pay for the
> installation of PTC? As a taxpayer this REALLY
> annoys me.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seat belts and collapsible steering columns were
> unfunded mandates on auto makers.
>
> The 21 year old national drinking age was a
> negative incentive. If your state don't raise the
> age, you don't get this pot of federal highway
> money.
>
> Rep Jim Howard moved that law.
>
> Posted from Android

Comparing apples to oranges. Seatbelts and collapsible steering columns did not require completely new technology infrastructure, GPS technology or wireless technology and bandwidth.

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Seat belts and collapsible steering columns
> were
> > unfunded mandates on auto makers.
> >
> > The 21 year old national drinking age was a
> > negative incentive. If your state don't raise
> the
> > age, you don't get this pot of federal highway
> > money.
> >
> > Rep Jim Howard moved that law.
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Comparing apples to oranges. Seatbelts and
> collapsible steering columns did not require
> completely new technology infrastructure, GPS
> technology or wireless technology and bandwidth.

Where do you think technology for smart airbags, TPMS, ESC, smart seatbelts, etc came from? Thin air?

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Seat belts and collapsible steering columns
> > were
> > > unfunded mandates on auto makers.
> > >
> > > The 21 year old national drinking age was a
> > > negative incentive. If your state don't raise
> > the
> > > age, you don't get this pot of federal
> highway
> > > money.
> > >
> > > Rep Jim Howard moved that law.
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
> >
> > Comparing apples to oranges. Seatbelts and
> > collapsible steering columns did not require
> > completely new technology infrastructure, GPS
> > technology or wireless technology and
> bandwidth.
>
> Where do you think technology for smart airbags,
> TPMS, ESC, smart seatbelts, etc came from? Thin
> air?

Wow, again apples to oranges.

I was directly responding to Lackawanna484 (even quoted it) to his reference to the decades old federal mandates of requiring all cars to have seatbelts and that people must wear them and that all cars must have collapsible steering columns. Again, decades old mandates that he was attempting to compare to.

Neither I nor he said anything about airbags, TPMs, computer/electrical controlled seatbelts, etc.

But thanks for opening your mouth and inserting your foot.

speaking of air bags.
my wife is a special ed teacher. she has had a few children in her class over the years who were permanently brain damaged by air bag deployment. do we really need airbags designed to protect a 200 pound human who chose not to wear their seatbelt?

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/18 13:09 by darkcloud.

jointauthority Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But yet they can operate over other railroads
> without PTC themselves right now? Oh wait I forgot
> they’re going to stop service without PTC now.
> Hopefully now freight railroads only install PTC
> if freight operations call for it and make Amtrak
> pay for any installation and operation of PTC on
> any territory not required for freight traffic
>
> Posted from iPhone


The railroads won't react to this at all. If anything they'll say "good riddance".

Isn't PTC also required for lines transporting hazmat?

They could be an issue for several class 1 lines, chemical companies, oil shippers, etc.

Posted from Android

In the long run... ...upon further economic review... these unfounded mandates get embedded into the railway costvstucture of doing business.

In the end, ticket and freight rate prices are increased by the companies. In the long economic run, consumers pay.

Correct?

Jimblaze Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the long run... ...upon further economic
> review... these unfounded mandates get embedded
> into the railway costvstucture of doing business.
>
> In the end, ticket and freight rate prices are
> increased by the companies. In the long economic
> run, consumers pay.
>
> Correct?

That's true in situations where there are a limited number of options available.

What may happen is that work arounds like moving some procedures, relocating factories, or outsourcing will take place.

There are trends of evidence that increases in minimum wages are accelerating adoption of more automation, for example.

Posted from Android