Passenger Trains > AAPRCO-RPCA-Amtrak Conference Call Minutes

Please see the Below minutes of the conference call that took place on Monday.

It should be noted that this call took place after Amtrak already initiated their new Private Car restrictions and the termination of all special trains and charter moves.

There has been near-universal disappointment (some have used the word “unprofessional”) to describe the abrupt nature of these changes. We received no advance notice of the charter train decision and the impending (and already-implemented) private-car changes.

In our collective private-sector business experience, we have never seen a product or service end-of-lifed without socializing the implications of the change with long-term customers.

My input is Why would Amtrak alienate their biggest supporters and turn away revenue? What type of business is Amtrak running?

Conference Call Summary
AAPRCO – RPCA – Amtrak
April 2, 2018

Amtrak Participants
Amtrak Services: Paul Vilter, Steve Robusto
Amtrak Operations: Howard Conway, Randy Barrows
Amtrak Mechanical: Charlie King, Lee Trombecky
Amtrak Host Railroad Group: Jim Blair

Private Car Participants
AAPRCO, VP-Transportation: Taylor Johnson (lead)
AAPRCO, President: Robert Donnelley
AAPRCO, VP-Amtrak/VIA Liaison: Jack Heard
AAPRCO, Washington Rep. Ross Capon
RPCA, President Roger Fuehring

Amtrak staff has been charged with looking at private cars on regularly scheduled Amtrak trains and making recommendations about the extent to which they can continue this business, with guidelines to: improve OTP/remove delays due to private cars, improve Amtrak economics, and review maintenance performed on private cars. This call arose from Paul’s conversation with Ross in which Ross expressed the desire that private car interests be able to provide input before Amtrak finalizes the new private car policy. Amtrak would very much like AAPRCO/RPCA input.

AAPRCO quotes and fully endorses Amtrak's mission statement – “to deliver intercity transportation with superior safety, customer service and financial excellence.”

[Paul subsequently noted that the full mission statement is: Amtrak’s mission is to deliver intercity transportation that helps move people, the economy and the nation forward. Amtrak is advancing its goal of being Americans’ preferred mode of travel by running an efficient and effective business; modernizing the customer experience; and investing in infrastructure, the locomotive and car fleets, and stations and facilities.]

Operational remedies discussed
AAPRCO/RPCA asks if Amtrak plans to restrict intermediate-point switching to stations where the published dwell time is at least 30 minutes. Amtrak says:
• We're here to get your ideas.
• If you want cars switched at every station, we can't do that.
• We are interested in your thoughts about what you think is reasonable and consistent with the mission of not delaying trains.

AAPRCO/RPCA says:
• It’s hard to believe that PVs have significant impact on OTP.
• People are running businesses here and are very paranoid they will go out of business if switch points under 30 minutes are eliminated.
• We suggest private cars have their own QMPs (qualified mechanical personnel) where needed to facilitate midpoint switching (Amtrak estimates there are 14 private-car QMPs). There would be a cost impact, but this would allow for expert knowledge in the field and would minimize OTP exposure.
• There is also the option to move private cars on the head end rather than rear. It’s obviously not popular with our members, but many of our cars don't have platforms, and -- especially at WAS, for example -- this would eliminate the need for an extra switching move since power is being switched anyway.
• Crews could be given a laminated check list to cover items -- simple items such as O-ring and their efficient sequencing -- just as freight crews carry check lists regarding air brake test protocols and placement of hazmat cars.
• Cars picked up at intermediate stops could be required to run on generator power until the next station stop with suitable terminal dwell time to connect HEP.
• In situations where there is objective evidence that a private car caused a delay, we could absorb a percentage of a fine; consider the delay as our own penalty/cost.
• The whole PV and special train net margin issue…the fully allocated mode really biases our contribution vs. providing our own cars. We want to explore what “fully allocated profitable margin” really means and whether it is appropriate. We really want to drill down on the margin model. The private car community would be willing to pay twice the actual cost. But, over the years, we have never been able to extract the details.
• We were surprised about the charter train announcement.

Amtrak says:
• Carrying a private car from the train’s origin to the train’s destination is the safest in terms of impact on OTP. We don't have a final answer yet regarding removing delays.
• Recovery time is in schedules to protect against train delays, not to provide time for switching private cars.

AAPRCO/RPCA says:
• It's all about cost-benefit. We have a Northeast Corridor experiment under way, running private cars on day trains for the first time in 17 years [DC-BOS 173 M-F, 163 Sa, 149 Su; 172 M-F, 162 Sa-Su].

Specific stations discussed
This is a long list to highlight. It is not all-inclusive; just a starting point.
• Oakland is absolutely critical.
• Lamy.
• Huntington, WV
• Denver
• Midway (St. Paul): There is a sizable investment in Amtrak-qualified cars there.
• Whitefish is a high-demand location and has great infrastructure.
• Charlotte and Savannah would be affected? Amtrak confirms that they are endpoints for Carolinian and Palmetto, respectively.
• Tucson: May go back to compromise just going westbound. There are seven Amtrak-qualified cars. UP Switching between Arizona RR Museum in Chandler and Port of Tucson is so expensive that they don't take advantage of it often.
• Albuquerque has dwell time of 28 minutes eastbound. There is a sharp divergence in east and west ABQ-Gallup run times – 3:21 for #4 is 62 minutes less than 2:23 for #3.
• Jacksonville has a significant private car count. We are not aware of any delays they have caused. Over $700K revenue in 2017. An arriving northbound train runs past the station and then backs down to the private car on track 1 and couples. Once coupling is made, passengers can get on and off, the diner can be serviced, and the train fueled. This procedure avoids switch engine involvement and blue-flagging. This has been in effect for about 20 years. We're coupled up in a few minutes and ready to go. There are 10 private cars at Orange Park, the Jacksonville area location where private cars are parked. Note that published dwell times are 91–21 minutes; 97–25 minutes; 98–20 minutes; 92–20 minutes.
• Orlando: There are 14 Amtrak-compatible cars nearby. You don't see many requests for switches, but we Beta-tested last year with no apparent issues. Please check OTP history. These cars are only accessible through Orlando.
• Denver
• Charter Wire cars, Milwaukee-Cleveland
• St. Louis
• San Antonio
• Omaha and Kansas City
• Let us get this down into more detail for each spot and focus on things we could do to expedite handling at any location to improve operations.

Amtrak says:
• Please provide by Thursday or Friday.

Private Car use of Amtrak Mechanical Services
Amtrak says:
• Generally speaking, is the work we do for you safety/FRA-related?
• Is that something you rely on Amtrak for, or do you mostly contract with private people?
• What is your level of interest in Amtrak doing safety-related work?

AAPRCO/RPCA says:
• We've been migrating towards Amtrak over time.
• Last week we heard revenue work was $300K in 2017. That sounded low.
• Our goal was to make Amtrak as profitable as possible. We always perceived it as a win-win.
• There are only a few high-quality, non-Amtrak shops left in the US to do major work.
• Our desire would be to continue using Amtrak.
• With charter trains disappearing and private cars' moves becoming more limited, we're going to lose more qualified people.
• If we lose the Amtrak mechanical services as well, that makes a bad situation worse.
• The excitement for working on private cars will dwindle, and we'll lose the young people that are coming into it. This would precipitate a turn in our industry like none other before.
• All the good railroad people will be gone.
• Albany, Beech Grove, Los Angeles, Miami are probably the most valuable Amtrak shops for us. If private car mechanical work is a profit center, why wouldn't Amtrak want to keep it? Are you considering eliminating mechanical service?

Amtrak says:
• We've been challenged to review the whole service. What would a case be where a contractor would work better?

AAPRCO/RPCA says:
• When we get a lower price for non-union labor.
• I think it makes sense to stay aligned with Amtrak.
• Third party shops mostly work out of their own vehicles, road-side. There are very few of them.
• We fully expect to pay full value for Amtrak services.

Wrap-Up
• The agenda was for Amtrak to listen to AAPRCO/RPCA concerns. None were raised about pricing, although Amtrak advises that a review of pricing is part of the overall review of the private car business.

AAPRCO/RPCA says:
• There has been near-universal disappointment (some have used the word “unprofessional”) to describe the abrupt nature of these changes. We received no advance notice of the charter train decision and the impending (and already-implemented) private-car changes.
• In our collective private-sector business experience, we have never seen a product or service end-of-lifed without socializing the implications of the change with long-term customers.
• We will provide to Amtrak a list of important private car locations and best practices by week's end.

To quote someone famous, Amtrak is not running a business; it is running a railroad.

All I see is a bunch of crying from entitled PV owners. Get a grip folks and move on.

Put the cars on at terminals or don't put them on at all. Customers who pay tons for sleeper fares are getting tired of your delays for adding PV's (ATTN: Oakland).

Please let the rest of know why you this this dialog is crying. We are being professional under very adverse conditions.

Please be aware that this is only the beginning. Next will be elimination of long distance trains and the elimination of sleeping cars.

We are trying to preserve passenger trains and have been doing so for 40 years. AAPRCO, NARP and others have spent countless dollars and hours of work supporting Amtrak and passenger trains to congress and state politicians.

RWS4449 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please let the rest of know why you this this
> dialog is crying. We are being professional under
> very adverse conditions.
>
> Please be aware that this is only the beginning.
> Next will be elimination of long distance trains
> and the elimination of sleeping cars.
>
> We are trying to preserve passenger trains and
> have been doing so for 40 years. AAPRCO, NARP and
> others have spent countless dollars and hours of
> work supporting Amtrak and passenger trains to
> congress and state politicians.


You're not trying to preserve passenger trains, or help Amtrak... You are just worried that Amtrak finally realized hauling your expensive toys around at the detriment of it's own customers isn't a good use of its limited resources...

That's a really good set of notes, thanks for sharing them.

I hadn't considered it earlier, but the elimination of (all?) charters will likely bang out the January NJ Chamber of Commerce chartered bar car train to DC. I always thought of that as pure gravy, cash in the bank to Amtrak.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/18 11:23 by Lackawanna484.

Very informative. Thank you.

Posted from iPhone

RWS4449 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please let the rest of know why you this this
> dialog is crying. We are being professional under
> very adverse conditions.

I am glad to see everyone talking. Good luck with working out a mutually acceptable solution.

Jack

I am surprised Pittsburgh is not on the list. I always see PV cars there, yet their only way out is to Sunnyside, and then via DC to get to the midwest.

What I see is Amtrak's phony concern about OTP, for which they want credit, while they have train crews all over breaking the rules by single-filing e-ticket scanning on the platform to load, they know it from lurking on this and other chat-boards, but do nothing for years on end.

They can also tell passengers along some of the longer platforms, such as on Lake Shore Ltd route in NYS the approximate places to wait according to destination or coach or sleeper designation on their ticket.

The fact is, they don't care how much that delays trains with excess dwell time and how much it pisses off Class I dispatchers. They simply want theater that they do care with this PV issue. I can see right through their BS. I am sure others can too.

But I do think PV owners should be more flexible in being placed at the head end of train where the switching procedure would be simpler or quicker, such as when their switching coincides with a loco change.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But I do think PV owners should be more flexible
> in being placed at the head end of train where the
> switching procedure would be simpler or quicker,
> such as when their switching coincides with a loco
> change.

While I believe many PVs are better maintained that Amtrak cars, I would not want to see PVs on the headend (except in emergency situations).

I look at it from a liability viewpoint. If a PV on the rear derails, it will not likely wreck any Amtrak cars (except for maybe tightlock coupling pulling the car off in front of it).

However if a PV were to cause a pileup of Amtrak cars carrying passengers ....

Jack

OK, but look at the Silver Star wreck. The lead 3 Amfleet coaches didn't jack-knife as most would expect, but instead the dinette car snapped in half like a toothpick. I'll let the civil and structural engineers figure that out. The week spot may have been the supply chute in the side of the dinette car. But there is also the matter of the heavy Viewliners bringing up the rear. PV cars are usually much heavier.

So it's a matter of weighing risks and likelihoods.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/18 11:35 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, but look at the Silver Star wreck. The lead 3
> Amfleet coaches didn't jack-knife as most would
> expect, but instead the dinette car snapped in
> half like a toothpick. I'll let the civil and
> structural engineers figure that out. The week
> spot may have been the supply chute in the side of
> the dinette car. But there is also the matter of
> the heavy Viewliners bringing up the rear. PV cars
> are usually much heavier.
>
> So it's a matter of weighing risks and
> likelihoods.

Perhaps more weight on the rear could have made something such as the Silver Star wreck worse, but the graphics of a bunch of Amtrak passengers piled up against a PV would not do any good for anyone.

Keep the PVs on the rear.

I think the idea of having the PVs not cut in to HEP, except if they are on the train at the origin point, would go a long way in solving the switching problem.

So lets say you are a PV owner. You have spent thousands if not millions restoring your cars. You pay rent to wherever they are parked and assumed you would have Amtrak access. Now without any notice, that access is being taken away. I have been on many trains where PV's are added or taken off. I've never been aware of a mechanical failure or excessive delay in doing so. I would say Amtrak's ill maintained equipment is much more likely to delay a train or crap out all together than any well maintained PV which certainly aren't rich peoples toys. Most PV owners are just average Americans with a passion for preservation and travel. And work very hard at keeping their cars in top condition to meet Amtrak requirements. As an aside, a few years ago at Emeryville I was waiting for the Starlight. It was late. The station agent blamed the delay and told all the waiting passengers it was "our" fault that the train was further delayed, by adding the 261 group's PV's to the rear. However we later found out one of the Amtrak's coaches was having issues, resulting in the delays. The station who later denied the event as we knew it to be true. So obviously some at Amtrak are biased against the PV's. And some here on TO are biased against something that owners have worked all their lives to afford and operate. Maybe they would just rather take a bus.

Add Milwaukee to the list. Lots of PVs are added and removed there.

Pleased to see meaningful interactions between Amtrak and the PV owner/operators. Please disregard the few jealous wannabe's and continue to do your best to reach a workable solution. Always remember that Amtrak is about 30% an operating railroad and 70% a political organization.

You need strength in both fields to get things done.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

The whole way Amtrak handled it was very unprofessional, even with their goals.

This reminds me of David Gunn telling the USPS and the express customers we're done, with 30 or 90 days notice, and Penn-DOT with almost no notice to take on 40/41 as a 403b train east of Pittsburgh when their budget year had been signed off.

Tom Downs got Boise, Pendleton, and La Grande municipalities to buy out those Pioneer service depots as local facilities, such as for local inter-modalism just before he sent off 180-notices to take the train off.

Amtrak has along history of misleading and pissing off business and state partnerships with their juvenile behavior.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/18 12:35 by joemvcnj.

M5R24 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I see is a bunch of crying from entitled PV
> owners. Get a grip folks and move on.
>
> Look, just because these guys have more money than you in some cases has no reflection on the issue. Amtrak is turning away revenue without ample public (read shareholders) input. Amtrak works for US and we deserve professionalism in its actions.

Some would say that the real purpose of Amtrak is to provide jobs for its employees.

YOU ARE CORRECT CONCERNING JOBS.

IF THE PV AND SPECIAL TRAINS REMOVALS CUT 10 MILLION FROM THE BOTTOM LINE AND THE AVERAGE AMTRAK EMPLOYEE EARNS $60k PER YEAR (THOSE ARE AMTRAK FIGURES NOT MINE) DO THE MATH AND SEE HOW MANY JOBS WILL BE LOST.

reindeerflame Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To quote someone famous, Amtrak is not running a
> business; it is running a railroad.
And when is running a railroad not a business? You are always very negative sir.
John in White Marsh, Maryland