Passenger Trains > Former ATSF Automatic Train Stop (ATS) Questions

Good Morning:

Once PTC is installed on BNSF, will the old ATSF automatic train stop system be retired? Also, will Amtrak be permitted by BNSF to increase speed to 90 mph in more locations along the Southwest Chief Route? How about on other BNSF routes?

Thank you in advance.

Everything is TBD.  ATS won't be retired untill any PTC solution is reliable enough not to have constant cut-outs.  Speed increases are possible, but ultimately unlikely because they would require costly signal and grade crossing timing analyses and/or changes. 

mbrotzman Wrote:
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> Everything is TBD.  ATS won't be retired untill
> any PTC solution is reliable enough not to have
> constant cut-outs.  Speed increases are possible,
> but ultimately unlikely because they would require
> costly signal and grade crossing timing analyses
> and/or changes. 

Would the "Directional" 90 mph be able to be discontinued?  Many portions of the line have 90 mph on both tracks, but they are only in the direction of the former ABS that was there before the BNSF resulting in 79 on one track and 90 on the other in the same direction.  I would have to figure that the crossing signal timing would have to be nearly the same on both to make an easy standard for the maintainers?

      By the time that is decided or PTC is proven acceptable, the SouthWest Chief may be history anyway.

Are any of the SWC trains actually operating at 90mph?

sure are just look at a train tracker site

KM-ML4000 Wrote:
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> Are any of the SWC trains actually operating at
> 90mph?

Back during early Amtrak days, I was rideing a biz car with a speedometer. We were crusing accross the desert at 115 MPH. The brass on board called the headend and ask him to "pinch down" the speed a bit. We spent the rest of the night hitting 105MPH. Santa Fe...all the way! 

KM-ML4000 Wrote:
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> Are any of the SWC trains actually operating at
> 90mph?

90mph across Missouri this morning according to the tracker

90 across parts of CA

Posted from iPhone

RRBaron Wrote:
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> KM-ML4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are any of the SWC trains actually operating at
> > 90mph?
>
> Back during early Amtrak days, I was rideing a biz
> car with a speedometer. We were crusing accross
> the desert at 115 MPH. The brass on board called
> the headend and ask him to "pinch down" the speed
> a bit. We spent the rest of the night hitting
> 105MPH. Santa Fe...all the way! 

Nice  as it should be today too....

>> Back during early Amtrak days, I was rideing a biz
>> car with a speedometer. We were crusing accross
>> the desert at 115 MPH. The brass on board called
>> the headend and ask him to "pinch down" the speed
>> a bit. We spent the rest of the night hitting
>> 105MPH. Santa Fe...all the way!

> Nice as it should be today too..

If it hadn't been for that speeding Atk engineer who plowed into Ricky Gates at Gunpow . . .

In the 1950s Santa Fe still had segments of 100 mph runniing in California.  While be givn a cab ride on the El Capital (legally), we encountered a 95 mph speed restriction on a curve betwen Vctorville and Barstow.  Hrdly noticed the slowing down. 

Once PTC is established, the railroads will need to petition the FRA to discontinue ATS, ATC and Cab Signals. They can't just turn them off on their own.

Here in Chicago, there are surprisingly many cases where Cab Signals are still used. It is on the radar of all the roads that use them to eventually petition for their discontinuance.

As for speed increases, PTC will "allow" for higher speeds, but maintaining the track to the higher standard will be the determining factor. If it is done solely for passenger trains, I don't see it happening. If a route, such as the Santa Fe transcon or other routes where they routinely haul ass can benefit from very high speed intermodal trains, then I could see it happening.

Except in those cases where the Cab Signal system is part of the PTC like on the NEC. ACSES is just an overlay on the Cab Signal System.

RRBaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KM-ML4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are any of the SWC trains actually operating at
> > 90mph?
>
> Back during early Amtrak days, I was rideing a biz
> car with a speedometer. We were crusing accross
> the desert at 115 MPH. The brass on board called
> the headend and ask him to "pinch down" the speed
> a bit. We spent the rest of the night hitting
> 105MPH. Santa Fe...all the way! 

I love these kinds of memories.  Makes me realize how good it could be (again) if people really wanted it.  "Please slow down to 105..."  I love it.

 

RRBadTrack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once PTC is established, the railroads will need
> to petition the FRA to discontinue ATS, ATC and
> Cab Signals. They can't just turn them off on
> their own.
>
> Here in Chicago, there are surprisingly many cases
> where Cab Signals are still used. It is on the
> radar of all the roads that use them to eventually
> petition for their discontinuance.
>
> As for speed increases, PTC will "allow" for
> higher speeds, but maintaining the track to the
> higher standard will be the determining factor. If
> it is done solely for passenger trains, I don't
> see it happening. If a route, such as the Santa Fe
> transcon or other routes where they routinely haul
> ass can benefit from very high speed intermodal
> trains, then I could see it happening.

Cab signals aren't likely to go anywhere, in fact NS is currently expanding it's cab signaled territory.  Even in non-ACSES territory cab signals can be an input into whatever PTC system is being employed.  The weakness of the industry chosen PTC implementation is the data links.  I don't know how often the various implementations need to get the movement authorities renewed.  In theory it could be as long as the current standard for being delayed in a block, which is something on the order of 5 minutes. A shorter interval would create a capability akin to a poor man's cab signal system, but then trains wind up getting stopped every time the data signal drops out.  Simply providing a cab signal input to whatever the PTC system is will provide a reliable and continuious source of track state information.  Coded track circuits are the gold standard and should have been part of the standard PTC implementation were it not for the fantacy that entire main lines could be covered with just a few wireless base stations.

ATS and CNW ATC are more likely to be removed as they are oddballs compared to 60/100hz coded track circuits.

Fort Madison, IA to St. Louis, MO and Albuquerque, NM to Barstow, CA

> Back during early Amtrak days, I was riding a biz
> car with a speedometer. We were cruising across
> the desert at 115 MPH. The brass on board called
> the headend and ask him to "pinch down" the speed
> a bit. We spent the rest of the night hitting
> 105MPH. Santa Fe...all the way! 

I have been asked to give more details about the above ride. So I have tried hard to piece together my fractured memory for die-hard TOs. First, when I wrote "biz car", I probably meant "private car". I always called them biz cars if they had open platforms. The"brass" I think may have been an AT&SF trainmaster. I do know that ATSF trainmasters rode early Amtrak trains when there was something unusual going on. I never spoke to him. One of the interesting things was that we would arrive at the few stops between Flagstaff and Barstow about 15-20 mins. early and then rocket-out on the advertised reaching up to 115MPH, by the speedometer, until the next stop where we cooled our wheels until train time. It was quite a ride and I recall it was over bolted rail, at least in some locations. To date the trip, I think it was the year the Santa Fe Pasadena (corrected Second) District was switched over to the I-210 Freeway RofW because I remember waving to all the stopped highway traffic during the morning rush--an "orange juice" in my hand. Some of the drivers were astonished by our effortless and luxurious transit. Then again I may be combining trips. I may have gotten the idea that it was a RR biz car because around that time, I cooled my heels one weekend in Winslow and visited a Santa Fe biz car that was parked and crewed there. I got some eats on board because, then the only thing open in Winslow was a KFC that sat between the eastbound and westbound lanes of Route 66. The La Posada Harvey House was then only used as ATSF offices. I recall that the Santa Fe biz car was odd because it had Dayglo orange panels on the platform guard rail. The year would have been in the later 1970s. Because each night I watched the "Super C" change crews on the fly in front of the old Harvey House, a red, white and blue SD45 always on the point. I am a life-longD&RGW man, but no railroad of my acquaintance ever ran a better operation than "Uncle John Santa Fe." It made me proud to be a railfan, railroader and an American. Well those days are fading fast!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/18 17:25 by RRBaron.

dcfbalcoS1 Wrote:
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>       By the time that is decided or PTC is
> proven acceptable, the SouthWest Chief may be
> history anyway.

Keep dreaming, since Propeller Head found out the hard way nobody's gonna let him get away with a train off or split!

RRBaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Back during early Amtrak days, I was riding a
> biz
> > car with a speedometer. We were cruising across
> > the desert at 115 MPH. The brass on board
> called
> > the headend and ask him to "pinch down" the
> speed
> > a bit. We spent the rest of the night hitting
> > 105MPH. Santa Fe...all the way! 
>
> I have been asked to give more details about the
> above ride. So I have tried hard to piece together
> my fractured memory for die-hard TOs. First, when
> I wrote "biz car", I probably meant "private car".
> I always called them biz cars if they had open
> platforms. The"brass" I think may have been an
> AT&SF trainmaster. I do know that ATSF
> trainmasters rode early Amtrak trains when there
> was something unusual going on. I never spoke to
> him. One of the interesting things was that we
> would arrive at the few stops between Flagstaff
> and Barstow about 15-20 mins. early and then
> rocket-out on the advertised reaching up to
> 115MPH, by the speedometer, until the next stop
> where we cooled our wheels until train time. It
> was quite a ride and I recall it was over bolted
> rail, at least in some locations. To date the
> trip, I think it was the year the Santa Fe
> Pasadena (Third?) District was switched over to
> the I-210 Freeway RofW because I remember waving
> to all the stopped highway traffic during the
> morning rush--an "orange juice" in my hand. Some
> of the drivers were astonished by our effortless
> and luxurious transit. Then again I may be
> combining trips. I may have gotten the idea that
> it was a RR biz car because around that time, I
> spent a weekend visiting a Santa Fe biz car that
> was parked and crewed at Windslow. I got some eats
> on board because, then the only thing open in
> Winslow was a KFC that sat between the eastbound
> and westbound lanes of Route 66. The La Posada
> Harvey House was then only used as ATSF offices. I
> recall that the Santa Fe biz car was odd because
> it had Dayglo orange panels on the platform guard
> rail. The year would have been in the later 1970s.
> Because each night I watched the "Super C" change
> crews on the fly in front of the old Harvey House,
> a red, white and blue SD45 always on the point. I
> am a life-long R&RGW man, but no railroad of my
> acquaintance ever ran a better operation than
> "Uncle John Santa Fe." It made me proud to be a
> railfan, railroader and an American. Well those
> days are fading fast!

The Pasadena Sub was the Second District. The Third District runs between San Bernardino and Los Angeles via Fullerton. This is now called the San Bernardino Sub.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/18 15:20 by PHall.