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Passenger Trains > #14 Overstaying its Welcome?


Date: 12/03/18 08:19
#14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: ExStarlightHog

I noticed #14 overstayed its welcome in EMY last night.  Over three hours?  Did the crew decide to go to beans?  Maybe a lot of baggage to put on or take off? 



Date: 12/03/18 09:07
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: ross

Had to pick up a UP unit.



Date: 12/03/18 11:01
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: GenePoon

Again.  State of...OH, NEVER MIND!



Date: 12/03/18 11:29
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: bluesboyst

Where are engines overhauled on the west coast or are they sent to Beech Grove?



Date: 12/03/18 12:12
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: SP4360

Yes Gene, it's all crap now.

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again.  State of...OH, NEVER MIND!



Date: 12/03/18 12:36
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: PHall

bluesboyst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where are engines overhauled on the west coast or
> are they sent to Beech Grove?

Beech Grove is the only heavy maintenance shop. All of the facilities on the west coast can only do routine inspections and quick running repairs.



Date: 12/03/18 15:09
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: ProAmtrak

Be easier if RCM was in effect systemwide, now we got Ammanagment that are more than happy to find ways to dismantle the National System!



Date: 12/03/18 16:57
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: CPCoyote

Three hours to pick up an engine!?



Date: 12/03/18 19:48
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: Highspeed

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Beech Grove is the only heavy maintenance shop.
> All of the facilities on the west coast can only
> do routine inspections and quick running repairs.

I would think Oakland’s traction motor changes, wheel truing, axle/wheelset replacements, and moderate wreck repair is much more than “quick running repairs”.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/18 19:50 by Highspeed.



Date: 12/03/18 19:55
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: stash

It was a UP engine per the post. I doubt UP has motors or crew on standby waiting for Amtrak.


CPCoyote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Three hours to pick up an engine!?

Posted from Android



Date: 12/03/18 23:25
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: GenePoon

But the time could have been cut significantly had Amtrak officials used their brains (assuming
upper management lets them do so) and planned ahead.

The engine failure occurred near Logan, which is an hour prior to San Jose.  The AMTK 39 suffered
a total failure...it made a loud boom, shook violently, and everything quit...no load, nothing.  Fortunately
the AMTK 510 behind it was still running and the MU controls on the 39 functioned properly to control
the 510.  The crew notified Amtrak and the train continued under the power and HEP of one 25 year old
P32.

The train was able to make 55mph on the one unit.  It proceeded to San Jose and then Oakland. 
Bear in mind, all this time, Amtrak officials knew that Train 14(2) would have no way to make it over
its entire route on the power of one P32.  Also, there was no unit available at Oakland to replace
the dead engine.

And sure enough, Oakland couldn't fix it.

Now, remember that by the time Amtrak figured out that they couldn't fix the 39 so it
could continue and power the train, it had been about 2 1/2 hours since the crew initially notified
officials of the major, possibly fatal engine failure.  But Amtrak had made no further plans other than
to try and fix the unit at Oakland.  Only after failing to do so did they notify Union Pacific that they
would need a freight engine to add to the train.  Meanwhile, Train 14(2) limped to Emeryville, where
it stopped and waited for that engine.

Union Pacific doesn't exactly keep spare engines around, in good running order, just in case
Amtrak needs one.  Nor do they keep crews on hand, at the ready to go to work.  UP had to call a
crew, locate and prepare a unit, and have that crew bring UP 5802 to the train at Emeryville.

It took about four hours, most of it unnecessary.

THAT is how you run off your customers.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/18 23:26 by GenePoon.



Date: 12/04/18 07:17
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: reindeerflame

Hard to believe that there were no units at Oakland; perhaps no spare units.

Amtrak units are frequently seen on the corridor trains.

Obviously there was a reluctance to borrow a corridor unit or even a Train 6 unit.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 12/04/18 08:23
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: PHall

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the time could have been cut significantly had
> Amtrak officials used their brains (assuming
> upper management lets them do so) and planned
> ahead.
>
> The engine failure occurred near Logan, which is
> an hour prior to San Jose.  The AMTK 39 suffered
> a total failure...it made a loud boom, shook
> violently, and everything quit...no load,
> nothing.  Fortunately
> the AMTK 510 behind it was still running and the
> MU controls on the 39 functioned properly to
> control
> the 510.  The crew notified Amtrak and the train
> continued under the power and HEP of one 25 year
> old
> P32.
>
> The train was able to make 55mph on the one
> unit.  It proceeded to San Jose and then
> Oakland. 
> Bear in mind, all this time, Amtrak officials knew
> that Train 14(2) would have no way to make it
> over
> its entire route on the power of one P32.  Also,
> there was no unit available at Oakland to replace
> the dead engine.
>
> And sure enough, Oakland couldn't fix it.
>
> Now, remember that by the time Amtrak figured out
> that they couldn't fix the 39 so it
> could continue and power the train, it had been
> about 2 1/2 hours since the crew initially
> notified
> officials of the major, possibly fatal engine
> failure.  But Amtrak had made no further plans
> other than
> to try and fix the unit at Oakland.  Only after
> failing to do so did they notify Union Pacific
> that they
> would need a freight engine to add to the train. 
> Meanwhile, Train 14(2) limped to Emeryville,
> where
> it stopped and waited for that engine.
>
> Union Pacific doesn't exactly keep spare engines
> around, in good running order, just in case
> Amtrak needs one.  Nor do they keep crews on
> hand, at the ready to go to work.  UP had to call
> a
> crew, locate and prepare a unit, and have that
> crew bring UP 5802 to the train at Emeryville.
>
> It took about four hours, most of it unnecessary.
>
> THAT is how you run off your customers.
>
>  

Why would UP need to call a crew? 



Date: 12/04/18 10:29
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: stash

Answer: to get the UP motor.


PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GenePoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But the time could have been cut significantly
> had
> > Amtrak officials used their brains (assuming
> > upper management lets them do so) and planned
> > ahead.
> >
> > The engine failure occurred near Logan, which
> is
> > an hour prior to San Jose.  The AMTK 39
> suffered
> > a total failure...it made a loud boom, shook
> > violently, and everything quit...no load,
> > nothing.  Fortunately
> > the AMTK 510 behind it was still running and
> the
> > MU controls on the 39 functioned properly to
> > control
> > the 510.  The crew notified Amtrak and the
> train
> > continued under the power and HEP of one 25
> year
> > old
> > P32.
> >
> > The train was able to make 55mph on the one
> > unit.  It proceeded to San Jose and then
> > Oakland. 
> > Bear in mind, all this time, Amtrak officials
> knew
> > that Train 14(2) would have no way to make it
> > over
> > its entire route on the power of one P32. 
> Also,
> > there was no unit available at Oakland to
> replace
> > the dead engine.
> >
> > And sure enough, Oakland couldn't fix it.
> >
> > Now, remember that by the time Amtrak figured
> out
> > that they couldn't fix the 39 so it
> > could continue and power the train, it had been
> > about 2 1/2 hours since the crew initially
> > notified
> > officials of the major, possibly fatal engine
> > failure.  But Amtrak had made no further plans
> > other than
> > to try and fix the unit at Oakland.  Only
> after
> > failing to do so did they notify Union Pacific
> > that they
> > would need a freight engine to add to the
> train. 
> > Meanwhile, Train 14(2) limped to Emeryville,
> > where
> > it stopped and waited for that engine.
> >
> > Union Pacific doesn't exactly keep spare
> engines
> > around, in good running order, just in case
> > Amtrak needs one.  Nor do they keep crews on
> > hand, at the ready to go to work.  UP had to
> call
> > a
> > crew, locate and prepare a unit, and have that
> > crew bring UP 5802 to the train at Emeryville.
> >
> > It took about four hours, most of it
> unnecessary.
> >
> > THAT is how you run off your customers.
> >
> >  
>
> Why would UP need to call a crew? 

Posted from Android



Date: 12/04/18 11:33
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: PHall

stash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answer: to get the UP motor.
>
>
So the hostlers couldn't bring it over?



Date: 12/04/18 14:26
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: stash

Likely depends on labor agreements and crew availability.


PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Answer: to get the UP motor.
> >
> >
> So the hostlers couldn't bring it over?

Posted from Android



Date: 12/04/18 14:30
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: ExSPCondr

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stash Wrote
> > Answer: to get the UP motor.
>
> So the hostlers couldn't bring it over?

Hostlers work out of roundhouses, eg West Oakland, and can only work within Yard Limits. Consequently they cannot operate between West Oakand and Emeryvile.  West Oakland doesn't originate any pool freight trains, other than an occasional auto repo in either direction any more.  All it does is service the Roseville Hauler power and the very few locals and switchers. Consequently it doesn't have many freight units laying around.  Does WO even have hostlers on duty 24/7/365?

A UP locomotive, IF one was available and turned right, might well not be supplied, cleaned, and fueled, and might not have a radio and/or a telemetry receiver (the head end box for the fred.)  

IMNSHO, Gene was right, Amtrak shoud have ordered an engine as soon as their crew told them the engine blew up at Logan.

So, what do we do to minimize the delay, and make sure that a properly equipped locomotive is available, and able to be quickly put on the head end of #14 by hostlers??   WE PUT THE UNIT ON AT ROSEVILLE!

Amtak should have put a mechanic on at Jack London,  who could have diagnosed the unit as a catastrophic failure long before it got to Emeryvile and ordered a replacement...
G



Date: 12/04/18 15:00
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: aronco

Adding a unit at Roseville would have been difficult as No. 14 does not go to or thru Roseville.

Norm

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar



Date: 12/04/18 15:01
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: jst3751

ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Amtak should have put a mechanic on at Jack
> London,  who could have diagnosed the unit as a
> catastrophic failure long before it got to
> Emeryvile and ordered a replacement...
> G
  • Was there a mechanic available to be at Oakland?
  • Was there one or more union rules that would have gotten in the way of getting a mechanic to the train before Emeryville?
  • Was there one or more union rules somewhere that prevented Amtrak from accepting the engineers report that the engine was dead and in a non-repairable condition?

A lot of armchair Amtrak experts here. But what so many fail to understand, when shit happens and hits the fan, things are going to get messy all around.



Date: 12/04/18 15:46
Re: #14 Overstaying its Welcome?
Author: ExSPCondr

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ExSPCondr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Amtak should have put a mechanic on at Jack
> > London,  who could have diagnosed the unit as
> a
> > catastrophic failure long before it got to
> > Emeryvile and ordered a replacement...
> > G
>
>
  • Was there a mechanic available to be at
    > Oakland?
    >
  • Was there one or more union rules that would
    > have gotten in the way of getting a mechanic to
    > the train before Emeryville?
    >
  • Was there one or more union rules somewhere
    > that prevented Amtrak from accepting the engineers
    > report that the engine was dead and in a
    > non-repairable condition?
    >What does the below mean?  Atk had at least an hour and a half (time from first call at Logan that the unit had made a lot of noise and quit, until #14 arrived Jack London) to do nothing but make phone calls, somebody drive to the Atk Rhse and pick up a mechanic and take him to Jack London.  They didn't, and also didn't order a freight unit "just in case."
    >
    > A lot of armchair Amtrak experts here. But what so
    > many fail to understand, when shit happens and
    > hits the fan, things are going to get messy all
    > around.

    Several things need to be mentioned here.
  • 1. I was a Trainmaster-Amtrak between 1982 and 1985.  That job was a traveling electrician on Amtrak trains on the SP Lines,  and as such I am qualified on HEP and to diagnose a locomotive and make suggstions.
  • 2. I worked out of Roseville on my System Conductor's seniority date (4/15/17) from February of 1988 until March of 2005 when I bid to Sparks, Nv to work the long pool.  As such, I am qualified between Oakland and Dunsmuir, on both the former SP and the former WP trackage.
  • 3. There are no "Yard" mechanics or "Road" mechanics, all are allowed under their agreements to work anywhere. 
  • 4. Norm, I agree #14 normally turns North at Haggin and goes to Binney Jct. via the former WP, but it is able to go via Roseville as it did from when the SP leased the West Valley Line in the late 80s until the UP put in the connector at Biney Jct after they took over.
  • G



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