Passenger Trains > Pullman company 1967 vs. Amtrak 2018

"Pullman Goes to Sleep" is the title of an article in a recent Passenger Train Journal.  The article details the end of the Pullman Company in 1967-68.  Railroads were ending passenger service.  Pullman still managed a fleet of 1021 cars at the end of 1967.  Author Elbert Simon provides many other details and insights into the end of Pullman.  Simon said that Pullman sold 1,546,300 sleeping berths in 1967.  That is 4,235 per day.  Obviously some rooms had more than one bed. The article is a good read.  

Then I thought, how many rooms (all kinds) does Amtrak dispatch per day.  With a bit of addition and calculation, it is about 1000 per day on the average, given tri-weakly trains etc.   I personally hope the future is solid for sleeping cars, but I am a realist that many forces want to see this kind of travel disappear all together.  

Pullman, and its host railroads, had the advantage of indirect subsidies from many major customers.  There was a nightly sleeper from Pittsburgh to Massena NY, and return.  For the benefit of Aluminum Company of America, which had a HQ at one end, and a major facility at the other.

Erie ran a nightly sleeper from Jersey City to Jamestown NY, which was a great benefit to the furniture industry.  Buyers and major stores were in NYC, many furniture makers were in Jamestown. (That's a business which completely eroded.)

We all know that Amtrak sleeping cars are frequently sold out - even at what I consider very expensive prices.

Consider the Silver Meteor - it carries 3 sleepers, with the capacity of about 6 of the room sleepers of the past.
And the peak-season Auto Train with 6 sleepers (I think), has sleeper capacity which compares favorably with the All-Pullman trains of the past.

The problem with comparing Amtrak with trains of the past is -- Amtrak simply doesn't run many long distance trains,  But on the few trains that carry them, sleepers seem to do very well. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/18 05:31 by ronald321.

I’ve often wondered if an all sleeper train on any route would cover costs. Nonstop over the entire route unless there is a reservation at an intermediate point. SWC or Florida trains come to mind as prime routes for this type of service.

Posted from iPhone

We'll never know because Amtrak does not innovate--does not do experimental projects to see if something might work.

If they did, I think a resurrection of the former Broadway Ltd. route might have a chance.  NYC and Philly have grown so much since the Broadway quit.
As has DC - and if a Washington section could be added at Harrisburg or Pittsburgh -  well, at least it might be worth a chance to find out.  No reason to excluded coaches either.

To the "it will never work" crowd,  Amtrak could point out - that before Acela started, no one in their wildest dreams thought these short, little trains could de-throne the airlines and flip the Air/Rail market on their route.

 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We'll never know because Amtrak does not
> innovate--does not do experimental projects to see
> if something might work.
>
> If they did, I think a resurrection of the former
> Broadway Ltd. route might have a chance.  NYC and
> Philly have grown so much since the Broadway
> quit.
> As has DC - and if a Washington section could be
> added at Harrisburg or Pittsburgh -  well, at
> least it might be worth a chance to find out.  No
> reason to excluded coaches either.
>
> To the "it will never work" crowd,  Amtrak could
> point out - that before Acela started, no one in
> their wildest dreams thought these short, little
> trains could de-throne the airlines and flip the
> Air/Rail market on their route.
>
>  

Thought experiment- What if Amtrak replaced all senior management with experienced railfans?

There's a wonderful play called BENEFACTORS. In which an enthusiastic young architect seems to build good housing for the poor.

Nope, there's a pipe easement on that corner. Nope, electricity has to come in over there.
Nope, stand pipe must be two feet or more from sewer drain line.

His final work resembles everything which preceded it.

An experienced rail fan still has to reach agreement with Amtrak's many good employees. And address the skewed food and beverage situation.

And the falling apart equipment.

Posted from Android

Duna

Of course, there are so-called railfans who don't believe the passenger train has a place in modern day America..  To them, no amount of experimentation is worthwhile..
I'm afraid Anderson feels the same way.

Amtrak seems to have a solid base of sleeping car ridership -- so, it might grow if more (and better scheduled) overnight trains were available.  A demonstration  project might give evidence one way or the other.

But since Anderson and his management team know very little about passenger trains (Anderson admits it) - there is little chance he would investigate the details  involved of a NYC-PHIL-CHI overnight train -- probably never heard the name Broadway Ltd..  Would probably want to substitute a bus in the middle of the run,
.

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duna
>
> Of course, there are so-called railfans who don't
> believe the passenger train has a place in modern
> day America..  To them, no amount of
> experimentation is worthwhile..
> I'm afraid Anderson feels the same way.
>
> Amtrak seems to have a solid base of sleeping car
> ridership -- so, it might grow if more (and better
> scheduled) overnight trains were available.  A
> demonstration  project might give evidence one
> way or the other.
>
> But since Anderson and his management team know
> very little about passenger trains (Anderson
> admits it) - there is little chance he would
> investigate the details  involved of a
> NYC-PHIL-CHI overnight train -- probably never
> heard the name Broadway Ltd..  Would probably
> want to substitute a bus in the middle of the
> run,
> .

Sure, except 30 or 40 people per night is not a large sample.  If sleepers were lucrative, Amtrak would just run an all-sleeper train; they could finance the cars needed by pledging revenue, much like the Surfliner fleet was acquired.  No need for a Congressional appropriation.

• great idea!

Charles Rice
Saint Louis, MO

Duna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ronald321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We'll never know because Amtrak does not
> > innovate--does not do experimental projects to
> see
> > if something might work.
> >
> > If they did, I think a resurrection of the
> former
> > Broadway Ltd. route might have a chance.  NYC
> and
> > Philly have grown so much since the Broadway
> > quit.
> > As has DC - and if a Washington section could
> be
> > added at Harrisburg or Pittsburgh -  well, at
> > least it might be worth a chance to find out. 
> No
> > reason to excluded coaches either.
> >
> > To the "it will never work" crowd,  Amtrak
> could
> > point out - that before Acela started, no one
> in
> > their wildest dreams thought these short,
> little
> > trains could de-throne the airlines and flip
> the
> > Air/Rail market on their route.
> >
> >  
>
> Thought experiment- What if Amtrak replaced all
> senior management with experienced railfans?

Then Amtrak would be running a lot more empty trains, but at least they would have fine dining with white linen tablecloths and a very extensive wine list to go with those freshly prepared meals! Best of all, the taxpayer would kick in $1.00 for each $1.00 you spend on that fine dining experience.  

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duna
>
> Of course, there are so-called railfans who don't
> believe the passenger train has a place in modern
> day America..  To them, no amount of
> experimentation is worthwhile..
> I'm afraid Anderson feels the same way.
>
> Amtrak seems to have a solid base of sleeping car
> ridership -- so, it might grow if more (and better
> scheduled) overnight trains were available.  A
> demonstration  project might give evidence one
> way or the other.
>
> But since Anderson and his management team know
> very little about passenger trains (Anderson
> admits it) - there is little chance he would
> investigate the details  involved of a
> NYC-PHIL-CHI overnight train -- probably never
> heard the name Broadway Ltd..  Would probably
> want to substitute a bus in the middle of the
> run,
> .

Are you saying that the average railfan knows more about running passenger trains than Mr. Anderson and Amtrak senior management?

Or that railfans know even less than "very little.."?

On second thought - maybe the last thing Amtrak needs is train fans.  From the comments above, it sounds like many don't believe in in the rail mode, and are much too negative.
Innovation and improvements will never come with negative thinking like this.

But who knows.  Amtrak has been receiving bigger budgets lately - and if Amtrak can snag a portion of the huge Infrastructure Bill Congress has been talking about---then it might be possible for Amtrak to experiment and innovate.  Then the negative rail fans will say--"thought it could never happen"  Under Anderson , it probably WON"t happen--But he won't be there forever.
 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On second thought - maybe the last thing Amtrak
> needs is train fans.  From the comments above, it
> sounds like many don't believe in in the rail
> mode, and are much too negative.
>  

Many railfans mistake facts for negativity. But facts just are.

Like that pesky < 0.2 of intercity passenger-miles that Amtrak carries.

If you can't measure it, you can't change it.

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On second thought - maybe the last thing Amtrak
> needs is train fans.  From the comments above, it
> sounds like many don't believe in in the rail
> mode, and are much too negative.
> Innovation and improvements will never come with
> negative thinking like this.
>
> But who knows.  Amtrak has been receiving bigger
> budgets lately - and if Amtrak can snag a portion
> of the huge Infrastructure Bill Congress has been
> talking about---then it might be possible for
> Amtrak to experiment and innovate.  Then the
> negative rail fans will say--"thought it could
> never happen"  Under Anderson , it probably WON"t
> happen--But he won't be there forever.
>  

As an ATSF executive was overheard to say....."We can fill the trains, but can we afford to run them?" What he was saying is that sure, they could attract riders, but the cost to carry them in seats and berths, as well as the costs to feed them, exceeded any reasonable fare they could charge for transportation or price that could be charged for meals.  
Amtrak is really faced with the same reality. If the (passenger) rail buffs had their way, we would be expanding routes, restoring full dining service, ect. The best of the railroad managers on pro-passenger roads, like Santa Fe and UP, couldn't put humpty back together again, yet the buffs keep saying if we just do the same things over again, then passengers will flock back to trains....folks who the buffs think will be ever willing to spend more $$ for basic transport and give up convenience for a train ride. (I even think a few would like to resurrect Budd Company plans and build 1950's type passenger cars for Amtrak use.) 
I love riding trains. I rode many pre-Amtrak routes and on occasion I ride Amtrak as well. I even worked for them for 7 years. I do believe rail passenger service has a future, but probably not in the model that now exists. Anderson gets it. 

Amtrak only hauls 0.2% of all passenger travel and that is a fact...but a much better comparison would be what percentage of travel does Amtrak/intercity rail travel carry on routes that Amtrak actually serves with even half hearted attempt...what percentage of Detroit/Ann Arbor to Chicago passengers does Amtrak haul?  What percentage of St. Louis/Alton to Chicago?  Philly to New York? Alexandria/DC/Beltway to the New York Metro? LA to San Diego? Albany to New York?  Lancaster to Philadelphia?  I'd bet a box of Tim Horton's donuts that it is higher, much higher than 0.2 percent.  I'm not sure where or if such stats can be found.  Its not fair to judge the potential of rail as a competitor when there is no service to compete with other modes, or when the provider itself (Amtrak) uses equipment that should be in museums and has no passion for nor understanding of its own product...which varies greatly from route to route.  

I agree that if Amtrak went away tomorrow, outside a few corridors no one would miss it.  For every Whitefish, Connersville, Rocky Mount, Poplar Bluff, there are hundreds of other similar sized and much larger cities that have gotten along just fine without intercity passenger trains for the better part of a half century.  Think Nashville, Columbus, Dayton, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Louisville, Phoenix, and on and on.  However It is a quality of life issue, and I happen to believe the richest, most powerful nation in the world should have a decent network of passenger trains as an option for those who cannot or do not want to drive. So far, my opinion has been in the minority, and our elected officials feel rail is not worth the effort.

What type of service a modern passenger train should offer should also be updated...it is simply amazing what the airlines offer.  Anyone ever try Jet Blue Mint service?  It is amazing, and largely affordable to the masses.  I'd love to see a service like that on one night out and long haul regional trains like the Palmetto, Pennsylvanian or Carolinian.  But again, Amtrak does not innovate or ever think outside the box.  Just look at the current mismatch of what it calls Business Class...its different on almost every train you ride east of the Mississippi...and in some cases the seats are worse than coach!  Think Pennsylvanian and Palmetto, where an Amfleet II coach with leg rest and much more seat pitch and recline is much more comfortable than a business class seat, with much less legroom, and no leg rest.  But hey, you do get a warm bottle of water.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/18 16:31 by cabsignaldrop.

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ronald321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On second thought - maybe the last thing Amtrak
> > needs is train fans.  From the comments above,
> it
> > sounds like many don't believe in in the rail
> > mode, and are much too negative.
> > Innovation and improvements will never come
> with
> > negative thinking like this.
> >
> > But who knows.  Amtrak has been receiving
> bigger
> > budgets lately - and if Amtrak can snag a
> portion
> > of the huge Infrastructure Bill Congress has
> been
> > talking about---then it might be possible for
> > Amtrak to experiment and innovate.  Then the
> > negative rail fans will say--"thought it could
> > never happen"  Under Anderson , it probably
> WON"t
> > happen--But he won't be there forever.
> >  
>
> As an ATSF executive was overheard to say....."We
> can fill the trains, but can we afford to run
> them?" What he was saying is that sure, they could
> attract riders, but the cost to carry them in
> seats and berths, as well as the costs to feed
> them, exceeded any reasonable fare they could
> charge for transportation or price that could be
> charged for meals.  
> Amtrak is really faced with the same reality. If
> the (passenger) rail buffs had their way, we would
> be expanding routes, restoring full dining
> service, ect. The best of the railroad managers on
> pro-passenger roads, like Santa Fe and UP,
> couldn't put humpty back together again, yet the
> buffs keep saying if we just do the same things
> over again, then passengers will flock back to
> trains....folks who the buffs think will be ever
> willing to spend more $$ for basic transport and
> give up convenience for a train ride. (I even
> think a few would like to resurrect Budd Company
> plans and build 1950's type passenger cars for
> Amtrak use.) 
> I love riding trains. I rode many pre-Amtrak
> routes and on occasion I ride Amtrak as well. I
> even worked for them for 7 years. I do believe
> rail passenger service has a future, but probably
> not in the model that now exists. Anderson gets
> it. 

Well said ATSF3751. 

cabsignaldrop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amtrak only hauls 0.2% of all passenger travel and
> that is a fact...but a much better comparison
> would be what percentage of travel does
> Amtrak/intercity rail travel carry on routes that
> Amtrak actually serves with even half hearted
> attempt...what percentage of Detroit/Ann Arbor to
> Chicago passengers does Amtrak haul?  What
> percentage of St. Louis/Alton to Chicago?  Philly
> to New York? Alexandria/DC/Beltway to the New York
> Metro? LA to San Diego? Albany to New York? 
> Lancaster to Philadelphia?  I'd bet a box of Tim
> Horton's donuts that it is higher, much higher
> than 0.2 percent.  I'm not sure where or if such
> stats can be found.  Its not fair to judge the
> potential of rail as a competitor when there is no
> service to compete with other modes, or when the
> provider itself (Amtrak) uses equipment that
> should be in museums and has no passion for nor
> understanding of its own product...which varies
> greatly from route to route.  
>
> I agree that if Amtrak went away tomorrow, outside
> a few corridors no one would miss it.  For every
> Whitefish, Connersville, Rocky Mount, Poplar
> Bluff, there are hundreds of other similar sized
> and much larger cities that have gotten along just
> fine without intercity passenger trains for the
> better part of a half century.  Think Nashville,
> Columbus, Dayton, Knoxville, Chattanooga,
> Louisville, Phoenix, and on and on.  However It
> is a quality of life issue, and I happen to
> believe the richest, most powerful nation in the
> world should have a decent network of passenger
> trains as an option for those who cannot or do not
> want to drive. So far, my opinion has been in the
> minority, and our elected officials feel rail is
> not worth the effort.
>
> What type of service a modern passenger train
> should offer should also be updated...it is simply
> amazing what the airlines offer.  Anyone ever try
> Jet Blue Mint service?  It is amazing, and
> largely affordable to the masses.  I'd love to
> see a service like that on one night out and long
> haul regional trains like the Palmetto,
> Pennsylvanian or Carolinian.  But again, Amtrak
> does not innovate or ever think outside the box. 
> Just look at the current mismatch of what it calls
> Business Class...its different on almost every
> train you ride east of the Mississippi...and in
> some cases the seats are worse than coach!  Think
> Pennsylvanian and Palmetto, where an Amfleet II
> coach with leg rest and much more seat pitch and
> recline is much more comfortable than a business
> class seat, with much less legroom, and no leg
> rest.  But hey, you do get a warm bottle of
> water.


Of course Amtrak's share of trips & intercity pax miles varies by route / corridor. I never said it didn't. The same goes for every mode. That means rail does better in some places than others. There are finite funds, and Amtrak needs to spend money where it is most effective. That means the NEC and possibly Surfliner service. LD trains cost too much for too little benefit for too few people.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pullman, and its host railroads, had the advantage
> of indirect subsidies from many major customers. 
> There was a nightly sleeper from Pittsburgh to
> Massena NY, and return.  For the benefit of
> Aluminum Company of America, which had a HQ at one
> end, and a major facility at the other.
>
> Erie ran a nightly sleeper from Jersey City to
> Jamestown NY, which was a great benefit to the
> furniture industry.  Buyers and major stores were
> in NYC, many furniture makers were in Jamestown.
> (That's a business which completely eroded.)

America would have to make things again to need that type of service.

howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve often wondered if an all sleeper train on
> any route would cover costs. Nonstop over the
> entire route unless there is a reservation at an
> intermediate point. SWC or Florida trains come to
> mind as prime routes for this type of service.

Of course it can.  See Auto Train.