Passenger Trains > NY looks at mass transit subsidies

NY Times has an article about the infighting over ferry boat subsidies in NYC. Observers believe a subsidy of $24.75 per rider may be needed on the Coney Island line, which already has slow subway service to Manhattan.  Mayor DeBlasio has an ambitious plan to link more neighborhoods with ferry service. Costs have doubled for the still proposed system, as critics say improvements to the subways are more essential right now.

The ferry service is seen as a middle to upper income benefit, while subways and buses are seen by some as a service used by more New Yorkers. Neither the Mayor nor the Governor regularly use public transportation.

The ferry subsidy may be $10 per rider for the network, dropping to $6 if the optimistic assumptions prove out.  Although the city has a large mass transit network, many poor neighborhoods are underserved,  while the city proposes street cars and ferries for connected developers.  It appears these plans are "city plans" rather than state / MTA regional plans.  Although the city will probably try to get the MTA to pay

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/nyregion/new-york-ferry.html

 

They're not really talking about the traditional St George - Whitehall Street, Staten Island Ferry, which is unique is being free since 1997, but the rest of the smaller ferry system. https://www.ferry.nyc/routes-and-schedules/ I think a lot of them are status symbols. One more A-Special train frequency from and to Rockaway Park could easily inhale the entire Rockaway ferry load.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/19 10:45 by joemvcnj.

Is the notion of a Staten Island / South Ferry subway tunnel dead?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/19 13:35 by Tower_A-20.

Tower_A-20 Wrote:
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> Is the notion of a Staten Island / South Ferry
> subway tunnel dead?

Haven't heard that project mentioned in years.

There is/was a discussion about extending the subway from Bay Ridge Brooklyn to Staten Island, but that's been moribund for a long while.  Extending an already long ride into an even longer one.

The Bay Ridge--Staten Island subway connection was tried twice since 1915, was killed by politics and costs.
Since i left SI in 1957, two things,,, the 1964 Verazzano Bridge, double-decked for subway tracks but nixed by anti-transit Robert Moses, has struggled to handle city commuters with $19-max tolls;   and no lasting private ferry service, particularly from the distant South Shore, giving SI some of the worst commuter times in the US.
Ask SIers if they are happy with this colossal blunder.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/19 22:27 by Abqfoamer.

Abqfoamer Wrote:
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> The Bay Ridge--Staten Island subway connection was
> tried twice since 1915, was killed by politics and
> costs.
> Since i left SI in 1957, the 1964-Verazzano
> Bridge, double-decked for subway tracks but nixed
> by anti-transit Robert Moses, has struggled to
> handle city commuters with $19-max tolls.
> Ask SIers if they are happy with this colossal
> blunder.

From what  I understand, many residents of Staten Island would be delighted to keep Brooklyn at arm's length.  Residents get a steep discount on the tolls to Brooklyn, it used to be 50% off with EZ Pass.  Don't know what it is now

Per a recent NYT piece, the MTA is desperately in the red, will be raising fares again soon.

I'm reading, 'The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York' right now. It's almost unbelievable how much power he wielded and how many neighborhoods he wantonly destroyed without a second thought.

Abqfoamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Bay Ridge--Staten Island subway connection was
> tried twice since 1915, was killed by politics and
> costs.
> Since i left SI in 1957, the 1964-Verazzano
> Bridge, double-decked for subway tracks but nixed
> by anti-transit Robert Moses, has struggled to
> handle city commuters with $19-max tolls.
> Ask SIers if they are happy with this colossal
> blunder.

Erik Leeper
Phoenix, AZ

"...delighted to keep Brooklyn at arm's length."
Too late. My last visit in 2005, reading SI Advance (used to deliver for $9/week) posts, showed formerly semi-rural, tree-rich, casual non-crowded SI now with un-ending developments,  jammed 1940s roads, drugs, crime, lots of ethnic probs. 
So sad.
No more visits for me.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/19 22:21 by Abqfoamer.

Abqfoamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "...delighted to keep Brooklyn at arm's length."
> Too late. My last visit in 1965, reading SI
> Advance (used to deliver for $9/week) posts,
> showed formerly semi-rural, tree-rich, casual
> non-crowded Si now with un-ending developments, 
> jammed 1940s roads, drugs, crime, lots of ethnic
> probs. 
> So sad.
> No more visits for me.

Yes.

We have friends who lived on SI, and hoped the Verazzano would be a draw bridge they could pull up behind them.  He was a firefighter, she was a teacher in the city.  Moved from Brooklyn to SI in the 1970s to escape the decay and be out in the country.  Moved to Arizona one minute after they retired...

Welcome to the uncrowded, low taxes, no-big-storms, low-rain, four seasons Southwest, where nothing rusts much, Vegas, LA, San Diego beaches, Dallas, Denver, Colorado skiing are short flights away; Jet Blue has red-eye, non-stop flights to JFK if you NEED to go back, lots of mountains to hike, boating lakes, narrow gauge steam railroads.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/19 22:33 by Abqfoamer.

A good read is "The Routes Not Taken" by Joseph B. Raskin 978-0-8232-5369-2

Robert Moses did a lot of permanent damage, not just with anti-transit agenda, but destroying working-class neighborhoods, declaring them slums, corralling people into project housing on "Super Blocks", which instantly became dangerous areas.

One reason the MTA was created and took over Bridges and Tunnels was to get rid of him once and for all. He had recently lost a battle with Jane Jacobs in trying to destroy Greenvich Village and the East Village with an expressway. He had previsously tried that on Fire Island off Long Island and failed. 



I am in central NJ. But one way to avoid NJT's high fares and crappy service is to drive to the SIR Hueguenot station, which has free parking in a safe area.

It is 35 minutes, 30 mile drive, off peak Outerbridge toll round trip of $10.50, that train to St George for $2.75, reliable service, free SI ferry, which has nice scenery, a cheap snack bar, lots of tourists, then a free transfer to a subway near South Ferry. There is also a lot of police presence with dogs. Very safe.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/19 04:15 by joemvcnj.

On the SIRT train, many of your co-riders will be cops and firefighters on the way to or from work.

Posted from Android

Abqfoamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to the uncrowded, low taxes,
> no-big-storms, low-rain, four seasons Southwest,
> where nothing rusts much, Vegas, LA, San Diego
> beaches, Dallas, Denver, Colorado skiing are short
> flights away; Jet Blue has red-eye, non-stop
> flights to JFK if you NEED to go back, lots of
> mountains to hike, boating lakes, narrow gauge
> steam railroads.

Yup, that's all wonderful, but there are on-going water resource challenges throughout the Southwest, particularly with the Colorado River .  I'm more than happy to spend my tourist dollars in the Southwest enjoying the magnificent mountains and stupendous steam railroads there, but as far as a place to live, I'm content to live in the Northeast Great Lakes/Rust Belt region even if taxes are higher because water is far more abundant here.

So far, we central NM folks have adequate moisture from reservoirs and managed, mountain melt water down the Rio Grande, and underground aquifers that so far are holding their capacities. 
Apparently, folks living nearer the Colorado River watershed are not as lucky.

Abqfoamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So far, we central NM folks have adequate moisture
> from reservoirs and managed, mountain melt water
> down the Rio Grande, and underground aquifers that
> so far are holding their capacities. 
> Apparently, folks living nearer the Colorado River
> watershed are not as lucky.

During his short-lived 2008 presidential campaign, New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson stated that he favored a pipeline to bring Great Lakes water to the Southwest. 

A few years ago, mega-spender Governor Bill Richardson was running for President, ran up deficits which were finally controlled by next-Governor, moderate Susanna Martiniez, the Legislature and  increased taxes from a recovering oil industry.
A civilian space port, and NM's Rail Runner Abq-Santa Fe commuter line, were then spearheaded and partially financed by vote-hungry Richardson, both costing many hundreds of millions. 

The port now sits, unused for years, waiting for a promised second space vehicle's readiness after the first's  crash. Owner Virgin Galactic managed to get a half-billion state fund dollars  for that project.
 The Rail Runner, which has  seen some 60 new, feeder bus lines added along its 97-mile route, and is the best way to visit  automobile-jammed Santa Fe, is, unfortunately, years ahead of its time in large, low-population NM, has been losing riders since its 2006 startup, still owes its finance partner the Feds millions.
Abandoning the line would add to the dilemma,  officials say.

And unfortunately since November elections we now have another ambitious, financially liberal spend-thrift Governor who may be following in Richardson's footsteps.
 

Virgin Galactic is a cousin of Virgin Trains US, formerly BrightLine.

Watch out, Florida...

Posted from Android

My last SI visit was actually in 2005.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/19 22:20 by Abqfoamer.

Abqfoamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few years ago, mega-spender Governor Bill
> Richardson was running for President, ran up
> deficits which were finally controlled by
> next-Governor, moderate Susanna Martiniez, the
> Legislature and  increased taxes from a
> recovering oil industry.
> A civilian space port, and NM's Rail Runner
> Abq-Santa Fe commuter line, were then spearheaded
> and partially financed by vote-hungry Richardson,
> both costing many hundreds of millions. 
>
> The port now sits, unused for years, waiting for a
> promised second space vehicle's readiness after
> the first's  crash. Owner Virgin Galactic managed
> to get a half-billion state fund dollars  for
> that project.
>  The Rail Runner, which has  seen some 60 new,
> feeder bus lines added along its 97-mile route,
> and is the best way to visit  automobile-jammed
> Santa Fe, is, unfortunately, years ahead of its
> time in large, low-population NM, has been losing
> riders since its 2006 startup, still owes its
> finance partner the Feds millions.
> Abandoning the line would add to the dilemma, 
> officials say.
>
> And unfortunately since November elections we now
> have another ambitious, financially liberal
> spend-thrift Governor who may be following in
> Richardson's footsteps.

Not relevant to the point I made about water scarcity in the Southwest or Governor Richardson's pipeline idea.

>