Passenger Trains > Tour of the Canadian

I had the opportunity on Sunday for a tour of Via Rail #1, The Canadian, at Toronto prior to the train being boarded!

There were 22 cars in the consist:

2 F40's
1 Baggage-Dorm
2 Coaches
1 Skyline Dome for Coach Passengers
4 Manor Sleepers
1 Skyline Dome
1 Diner
5 Manor Sleepers
1 Skyline Dome
1 Diner
1 Manor Sleeper
1 Chateau Sleeper
2 Prestige Class Sleepers (with Chateau names)
1 Park Observation Car - Kootenay Park

By my count there were 34 On-Board Service Employees, not counting the engineer & conductor in the cab. It was noted that the entire On-Board crew would be swapped out at Winnipeg; their home crew base.

Sadly, I was just there for the tour. The Canadian is on my bucket list but not quite yet!

And for inquiring minds, the fare from Toronto to Vancouver in Prestige Class for 2 persons in mid-July is around $10,600C and over $12,000C with all the taxes! Rooms are available!

1. Park Car Dome - All except 4 seats were reserved for Prestige Class passengers
2. Park Car Rear Lounge
3. Kootenay Park



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/19 18:54 by mbutte.

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4. Observation Car with the iconic Royal York Hotel in the right background
5. Dining Car
6. Original Glass Panel 

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7. The other glass panel in the diner.
8. The train departing for the west on time at 9:45am



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/19 18:39 by mbutte.

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mbutte Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had the opportunity on Sunday for a tour of Via
> Rail #1, The Canadian, at Toronto prior to the
> train being boarded!
>
> There were 22 cars in the consist:
>
> 2 F40's
> 1 Baggage-Dorm
> 2 Coaches
> 1 Skyline Dome for Coach Passengers
> 4 Manor Sleepers
> 1 Skyline Dome
> 1 Diner
> 5 Manor Sleepers
> 1 Skyline Dome
> 1 Diner
> 1 Manor Sleeper
> 1 Chateau Sleeper
> 2 Prestige Class Sleepers (with Chateau names)
> 1 Park Observation Car - Kootenay Park
>
> By my count there were 34 On-Board Service
> Employees, not counting the engineer & conductor
> in the cab. It was noted that the entire On-Board
> crew would be swapped out at Winnipeg; their home
> crew base.
>
> Sadly, I was just there for the tour. The Canadian
> is on my bucket list but not quite yet!
>
> And for inquiring minds, the fare from Toronto to
> Vancouver in Prestige Class for 2 persons in
> mid-July is around $10,600C and over $12,000C with
> all the taxes! Rooms are available!
>
> 1. Park Car Dome - All except 4 seats were
> reserved for Prestige Class passengers
> 2. Park Car Rear Lounge
> 3. Kootenay Park

Do you know how the 34 onboard crew members was broken down? Here's a general overview that I can think of, and I am sure I am not capturing all:

- With two diners that is taking in a lot of crew members as VIA still puts at least two people back in the kitchen, four servers, and likely a "head" steward. I am thinking 7 minimum in each diner. 
- Each Prestige car is taking on one dedicated crew person for the $10 to $12K that is being charged there.
- There are 10 regular non-Prestige and non-crew sleepers (the Chateau in front of the first Prestige car is the "crew sleeper"), but some of the sleepers have one attendant per two sleepers for example (I've even seen one attendant to three sleepers in off-season). There's a panel that gets programmed near the open sections of the sleepers that help show where the "alert" is coming from for those that need assistance in their cabin. VIA actually uses it, Amtrak doesn't.
- Not all Skylines get a dedicated crew member any more - often one "activities coordinator" goes between the Skyline Dome cars assigned to Sleeper Plus Class.
- The Park Car has a dedicated attendant handling the bar and snacks there.
- The "coach Skyline" has to get an attendant that can also serve the snacks/meals to the coach passengers.
- Coach attendant. 
- Chief of Onboard Services

Even with the count above that's a count of 26......I am sure I am missing some onboard folks.  

When the CPR was operating the Canadian - remember this was back in the day of daily service with less cars per consist due to daily service (11 cars total per consist was the norm), seven consists required to operate the daily Canadian on a 70 hour schedule back then - the baggage-dormitory car had 15 crew members and 2 stewards taking up space!!! But the conductors and head-end crew were on different labor terms back then, so don't count them towards onboard crew. 

All crew changes at Winnipeg, including onboard crew. I've often wondered, aside from the general labor contracts that are in place, if VIA benefits from lower wages for an onboard crew for the Canadian out of Winnipeg than say Toronto, or even Vancouver.......NO conductors to maintain crew bases for over the ENTIRE route of the Canadian!!! VIA may have more crew, but not maintaining said crew bases is a HUGE savings. Those in the cab typically have worked for CN at one point in time (not all but majority). CN used to even have a transition program for those interested retiring out to VIA. I believe, but not sure, that the VIA engineers use the crew bases of the CN employees. There's some relationship and cooperative agreement here between CN and VIA. But there could be two to three people in the cab, as the original post mentions. 

VIA is clearly going after the high end revenue, and they are able to get that extra revenue for serving up a good and consistent product. Not repeating comments, but see my response over on Canadian board under "Unique Consists for VIA Rail Long Distance Trains." 
 
VIA is offering a lot of berths for sale in its inventory - way more than three or four Superliners than one would find on an Amtrak train. Did an analysis of that over in the Canadian Board. 

And it is nice to see a 22 car consist in the wake of the Canadian having to yield some of its spare or extra sleeper cars (Chateau's) to the Ocean. VIA likely did a calc of how many cars they needed for peak period Canadian consist (down to the two days a week consists, as opposed to three days a week like last year), transferred what they could to the Ocean, and then filled in with the Renaissance sleepers to make the Budd/Renaissance train set. 

Great consist for a great train! 

Appears this Canadian consist did NOT have the Panorama Car leaving Toronto? Of the three Canadian consists operating two days a week, supposedly one doesn't have a Panorama Car, as one is needed on the Price Rupert train to operate "Touring Class." Not sure if operating the Panorama Car from Winnipeg to Vancouver only would work so rotation could allow all three consists to have a turn at the Panorama Car. They used to turn at Edmonton. VIA really just needs to acquire one more of these cars somehow.........is the Alaska RR putting any up for sale? Rocky Mountaineer is converting them from their former Red Leaf cars.........

Thanks for sharing!!!! 

About the operating employees on Via. Two people in the locomotive cab. One "In Charge Locomotive Engineer" , and a second engineer who performs any ground work, including lining switches, riding the tail end car in back up moves, and handling baggage. The ICLE is the employee who copies operating authorities (track warrants in US terms, and assumes the "captain of the train" duties previously performed by the conductor. In the body of the train, the On Board Service Manager performs the other duties previously performed by the conductor.

Most of the former CP operating employees got a buy out in 1990 in exchange for giving up the right to operate Via trains on CP tracks.

Some time later on, Via went to the Canadian Government claiming hardship with having to deal with two unions , the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the United Transportation Union. The Government ordered a run off election for representation which the BLE won.

Subsequently, it became apparent why Via had pursued the "Section 18" representational election. Via wanted to eliminate all the train crew positions on the train, conductor, baggage man and train person. The BLE simply provided two engineers with expanded duties.

At the same time, the engineers employed by Via went to an hourly based pay system instead of the previous milage based system. Also,,the Via operating employees started running over multiple subdivisions, as much as they could cover in a twelve hour maximum day. That said, the Via crew change locations are often CN crew bases also. Via had to adjust some of their operating crew districts after Transport Canada did an audit of crew on duty times, and found excessive hours were being worked at some locations. One issue that had to be resolved was the lack of a "spare board' of Via operating staff at many locations. Previously, a CN engineer would be called, however during the EHH regime, CN no longer rented out the services of their employees. Sometimes the operating employees on duty on the train would volunteer to continue on until their hours of service expired. Via resolved the issue by hiring more operating employees and have them stay home on "standby pay" until they were required.  The Teamsters represent the operating employees on Via Rail, Unifor represents the on board staff and station, office and maintenance staff. Unifor is a descendant union to the CBRT&GW, which fulfilled the role of BRAC on the CN.

Via offered the displaced train crew members generous buy outs and retirement packages, and that got rid of most of the Via train crew members.

However, there were some not eligible to retire. Back when CN employees transferred over to Via, a "flow back" agreement was part of the package, should a Via train crew person lose their job because of service cuts, they could flow back to CN employment. However, the agreement didn't cover cuts due to the elimination of classes of service.
CN, with Hunter Harrison in control refused to take back the former CN employees displaced by Via.

George Cairns, a former CN employee displaced from Via challenged Via, CN and the Unions with an unfair labour practice. After several months of hearings, and six hundred pages of testimony, he won his case and the right to flow back to CN employment. Hunter Harrison was adamant that they would not return to CN employment and in the end, CN paid the displaced employees full wages to stay home. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/19 08:49 by eminence_grise.

As long as the 1955 Budd equipment keeps running, I've made a personal pledge to ride the train at least once a year.  It's not going to last forever.  In the off season, the price of an upper or lower section is actually quite reasonable, espcially when VIA has fare sales and considering that meals are included.  Sections have some of the most comfortable and spacious beds.  

jp1822 Wrote:

...
>
> - With two diners that is taking in a lot of crew
> members as VIA still puts at least two people back
> in the kitchen, four servers, and likely a "head"
> steward. I am thinking 7 minimum in each diner. 
...
From my observations, that is the maximum number of crew in a diner. The Steward is now known as Service Co-ordinator. There is no longer a "pantryperson" to make tea, coffee, plate salads and desserts and wash the dishes. So the diner's servers end up doing most of that, although when it is very busy sleeping car attendants are borrowed to help out in the pantry. Occasionally a Service Manager helps out washing the dishes. In the slow winter season there are often just four working the diner.

Generally, two sleeping car attendants work three sleepers. The dividing line between servicing the middle of the three sleepers is usually between cabins D & E, although the crew usually share the middle sleeper in the most efficient manner. Of course, the number of sleepers operated is not always multiples of three. In the winter season  there is often a fourth sleeper.  Tthe attendant for that car doesn't have the luxury of working only one sleeper and is assigned to help out in other ways, such as in the diner's pantry.  Most of the trains I have seen this peak season have had nine Manor sleepers, so this staffing arrangement should work well.

Regarding the baggage-dormitory in the CPR days, I was given a tour a few times. The one double bedroom was shared with the dining car steward and the chef. All other diner and Skyline staff had to share the 15 berths arranged as five sets of triple bunks. There was one shower available. When there were two diners on the Canadian a second baggage-dormitory car was operated. The sleeping car conductor and porters were spread throughout the train. When VIA took over, an I-series (all roomette) or similar sleeper was used for the crew, who preferred that over the steerage accommodation in the baggage-dormitory car.
 

Rode a couple January’s ago, off season, I think we had 15 cars in tow, price for wife and I was 
about half what you quote on the initial post, same class.  Absolutely wonderful trip.

Thanks for the tease!  I ask you, why the high prices?  How many riders are from out of Canada?  Is this the best use of Canadian taxpayers funds?  I'm glad it's still runnig, but jeez, it's a glorified cruise train!  I sure hope Amtrak's long distance trains don't morph into this type of transportation brand!  The average Joe should be able to afford a sleeping accomodation, but that's not the case with this train, especially in the Summer!

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the tease!  I ask you, why the high prices?

Because they're offering a quality product.  What they're charging to ride a dome car for over 2,000 miles is reasonable when you consider that practically no one else is offering such a thing.    

> How many riders are from out of Canada?

Don't know.  Don't care.  What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? 

> Is this the best use of Canadian taxpayers funds?

Oh jeez!  Here we go again.  Everyone today is a self-appointed comparative worth specialist.  Yes, by all means, let's spend all of those Canadian tax payer dollars on improving commercial airline service and for better and improved highways.  Happy now?    

> I'm glad it's still runnig, but jeez, it's a glorified cruise train! 

When was the last time you rode it?  Have you ever ridden it?  Since there have been cutbacks in bus service in Canada, the train is serving an increased use by Canadians traveling to cities large and small along the route.  Examine the coaches sometime to see the demographic VIA is serving.  And serving well.  

> I sure hope Amtrak's long distance trains don't morph into this type of transportation brand! 

I strongly disagree.  Imagine how neat it would be to enjoy a train like this on the route of the California Zephyr.  

> The average Joe should be able to afford a sleeping accomodation, but that's not the case with this train, especially in the Summer!

The average Joe CAN afford a sleeping accomodation (upper and lower sections) in the off season during a promotional fare sale.  But it takes research and dilligence to investigate and exploit that  -- something that a lot of people don't want to be bothered with.  They just want a "walk up" fare of $200. for a 2,000 mile trip in July in a Deluxe Bedroom.  Dream on.  

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the tease!  I ask you, why the high
> prices?  How many riders are from out of
> Canada?  Is this the best use of Canadian
> taxpayers funds?  I'm glad it's still runnig, but
> jeez, it's a glorified cruise train!  I sure hope
> Amtrak's long distance trains don't morph into
> this type of transportation brand!  The average
> Joe should be able to afford a sleeping
> accomodation, but that's not the case with this
> train, especially in the Summer!

As for the Canadian being a cruise train, realistically what else can a four-day train trip be? Yes, there are two coaches operated in the summer season, mainly for short-haul passengers. How many people want to rough it for four nights?
 
If you want to travel cheap it is often cheaper to fly than ride coach, even at the last-minute. Today’s departure of the Canadian from Toronto to Vancouver is sold out in all sleeper space except Prestige. Coach seats are available only at the full fare (Economy Plus) and that is $1373 including tax. By comparison, both Air Canada and Westjet are offering several flights today for the five-hour journey at $806 including taxes. VIA’s Prestige fare is $12,024 for one or two passengers.
 
VIA’s cheapest coach fare Toronto-Vancouver if booked in advance is $502. Air Canada has a sale on now and advance purchase fares are as low as $292.
 
For those who do not need to book long in advance, and not at the last minute, VIA still offers sleeping car discounted fares. For Toronto-Vancouver there are many dates available in the summer. The fares (plus sales tax which is 13% from Toronto but only 5% from Vancouver) are $704 for an upper berth, $827.50 for a lower berth and $1133 per person for a cabin.  Those fares are reasonable for a four-night trip, with very good – and often excellent – meals included.
 

I'm grateful that they saved all the Budd cars for people to enjoy in this day and age, and it's a grand way for Canada to show off their country, but it's morphed into something that most Canadian citizens can't afford.  Riding during the Winter?  Sub-zero temps and many hours of darkness are a deterrent.  I've studied the VIA sales, but with service only 2 times a week and the only rail connections with Amtrak at it's end points, it's not an easy or practical travel choice.  Face it, it's a vehicle for retired people with plenty of disposable income and time on their hands.

Unfortunately, one can no longer cross into Canada by bus any more between Sault Ste Marie and Vancouver. Grand Forks-Winnipeg and Shelby-Calgary buses are long gone. So the VIA's Canadian is for US endpoint passengers and whatever few middle income Canadians who book coach in the 2 or 3 coaches that run twice a week. 

I have seen Canadian citizens who were travelling from places like Regina heading to Vancouver, drive down to whatever corresponding station on the Empire Builder, and then head back north at Everett or Seattle. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/19 06:47 by joemvcnj.

How long does the trip take ? 10,000 Canadian is $7618 US$

Posted from Android

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm grateful that they saved all the Budd cars for people to enjoy in this day and age, and it's a grand way for Canada to show off their country, but it's morphed into something that most Canadian citizens can't afford. 

Maybe they should borrow a chapter from Australia and practically give tickets away for free to pensioners.  

> Riding during the Winter?  Sub-zero temps and many hours of darkness are a deterrent. 

I rode it last March and the weather was actually quite balmy and pleasant.  Ride in the summer and you can get bitten by mosquitoes as you're on the platform during servicing stops.  The train and the journey can either be as pleasant or as miserable as you want it to be with pre-conceived notions.  

> I've studied the VIA sales, but with service only 2 times a week and the only rail connections with Amtrak at it's end points, it's not an easy or practical travel choice. 

It depends on where you're traveling from or to.  There are a lot of people who look at the Amtrak western long hauls as a sort of cruise train experience where "getting there" may be almost all  of the reason for traveling.  I don't feel it's a crime for long haul trains to fulfill a cruise type of experience.  I know Richard Anderson does.  Apparently you do, too.   

> Face it, it's a vehicle for retired people with plenty of disposable income and time on their hands.

Okay.  You win.  That's what it is.  Now, does that mean we have to discontinue it because it's not operating at a profit and being all things to all people?  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/19 06:31 by CA_Sou_MA_Agent.

CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mp51w Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks for the tease!  I ask you, why the
> high prices?
>
> Because they're offering a quality product.  What
> they're charging to ride a dome car for over 2,000
> miles is reasonable when you consider that
> practically no one else is offering such a
> thing.    

Prices reserved exclusively for the wealthy. Since the train cannot operate without subsidies, this means the Canadian taxpayer is footing part of the bill for their luxury cruse adventure. 

>
> > How many riders are from out of Canada?
>
> Don't know.  Don't care.  What does this have to
> do with the price of tea in China? 
>
> > Is this the best use of Canadian taxpayers
> funds?
>
> Oh jeez!  Here we go again.  Everyone today is a
> self-appointed comparative worth specialist. 
> Yes, by all means, let's spend all of those
> Canadian tax payer dollars on improving commercial
> airline service and for better and improved
> highways.  Happy now?  

Yes, true. But lets take a look at the taxpayer subsidy per mile, or per rider, or just about any measure, and I will bet The Canadian requires a much larger subsidy then what other modes requie.   
>
> > I'm glad it's still runnig, but jeez, it's a
> glorified cruise train! 
>
> When was the last time you rode it?  Have you
> ever ridden it?  Since there have been cutbacks
> in bus service in Canada, the train is serving an
> increased use by Canadians traveling to cities
> large and small along the route.  Examine the
> coaches sometime to see the demographic VIA is
> serving.  And serving well.  

Great. Provide a Canadian, or whatever you want to call it, with reduced (less expensive)  food service and coaches only, between those points where alternate transport is scarce. I'll bet the subsidy could be reduced. Better yet, maybe the Canadian Government should re-instate bus service with subsidies. Much cheaper then a train option. Open the market to luxury service providers who and operate a cruise train on thier dime for those willing to pay the full price of providing such an experience. 
>
> > I sure hope Amtrak's long distance trains don't
> morph into this type of transportation brand! 

I think that is what Trump would like. He has already pushed for such. 
>
> I strongly disagree.  Imagine how neat it would
> be to enjoy a train like this on the route of the
> California Zephyr.  
>
> > The average Joe should be able to afford a
> sleeping accomodation, but that's not the case
> with this train, especially in the Summer!
>
> The average Joe CAN afford a sleeping accomodation
> (upper and lower sections) in the off season
> during a promotional fare sale.  But it takes
> research and dilligence to investigate and exploit
> that  -- something that a lot of people don't
> want to be bothered with.  They just want a "walk
> up" fare of $200. for a 2,000 mile trip in July in
> a Deluxe Bedroom.  Dream on.  
Nothing like a ride through Canada in the darkness of winter, or along the Fraiser during the season of endless grey. Sure, most of us love to ride trains, but that does not necessarly extend to those folks we want to travel with us.  So, It's not about ".....don't want to be bothered with", it's about going when you want...not taking 2nd best. There is a reason why most folks travel during the good weather season. Duh. 

 

CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mp51w Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm grateful that they saved all the Budd cars
> for people to enjoy in this day and age, and it's
> a grand way for Canada to show off their
> country, but it's morphed into something that
> most Canadian citizens can't afford. 
>
> Maybe they should borrow a chapter from Australia
> and practically give tickets away for free to
> pensioners.  
>
> > Riding during the Winter?  Sub-zero temps and
> many hours of darkness are a deterrent. 
>
> I rode it last March and the weather was actually
> quite balmy and pleasant.  Ride in the summer and
> you can get bitten by mosquitoes as you're on the
> platform during servicing stops.  The train and
> the journey can either be as pleasant or as
> miserable as you want it to be with pre-conceived
> notions.  
>
> > I've studied the VIA sales, but with service
> only 2 times a week and the only rail connections
> with Amtrak at it's end points, it's not an easy
> or practical travel choice. 
>
> It depends on where you're traveling from or to. 
> There are a lot of people who look at the Amtrak
> western long hauls as a sort of cruise train
> experience where "getting there" may be almost
> all  of the reason for traveling.  I don't feel
> it's a crime for long haul trains to fulfill a
> cruise type of experience.  I know Richard
> Anderson does.  Apparently you do, too.   
>
> > Face it, it's a vehicle for retired people with
> plenty of disposable income and time on their
> hands.
>
> Okay.  You win.  That's what it is.  Now, does
> that mean we have to discontinue it because it's
> not operating at a profit and being all things to
> all people?  

If it is operating for those with large disposable incomes with taxpayer dollars then maybe a rethink is required. 

This discussion is quite absurd.  Americans passing judgment on Canadian trains and how much they think they should be subsidized by Canadian taxpayers, if at all.  

Maybe it's THEIR issue.

No doubt, this is something we would see only on Trainorders.