Passenger Trains > A different perspective on diner downgrades

As I read all of the comments about the diner food, and the dire predictions of what it will mean to patronage, I wonder if we are all wrong.  While I have not pulled the data, as I recall when the Star lost its diner and fares went down in the sleepers (as compared to the Meteor), revenues for the train increased.  The diner loss actually appears to have had no impact on the Silver Star.

Some on here are rail fans.  Some are not.  However, we all have OUR view of the dining situation, and that view that may not match up with younger generations or those who have never ridden a train.  We all enjoy the diner, as do my kids, who are in their 20s.  However, they seem to have no vociferious objection to the change in food quality and service.  I do.  However, it will not cause me to stop riding trains.  Let's face it, the $400 hangar steak is not worth what Amtrak lists as its price on the menu (is it $28?).  If I ordered a similar meal at a restaurant and it came on plastic plates with a steak cooked to a temperature I did not request, I would never go back.  And yet we all pontificate that the diner is so special on the train.  No, it isn't.  It used to be.

I spent four nights on Amtrak trains this month.  The diner was fine, the food was fine.  However, it was not so good that I am really certain this change is such a great loss.  It is just different.  And we all hate change.

Remember, the number one customer satisfaction item for rail passengers is on time arrival, not food service.

It’s not so much the loss of diners most of us are concerned about. Food service should be tweaked and evolve. This curent scheme however is just one ploy in Amtrak’s CEO’s plan to eliminate most trains outside the NEC, Chicago and California.  I could probably name 20 questionable downgrades, changes and outright lies Richard Anderson has made to back this up. Death by a 1000 cuts to starve off ridership.

You may well be right.

Thank goodness for the balance of power that our forefathers put into place.  It may be the last hope.

Flyer92122 Wrote:
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> It’s not so much the loss of diners most of us
> are concerned about. Food service should be
> tweaked and evolve. This curent scheme however is
> just one ploy in Amtrak’s CEO’s plan to
> eliminate most trains outside the NEC, Chicago and
> California.  I could probably name 20
> questionable downgrades, changes and outright lies
> Richard Anderson has made to back this up. Death
> by a 1000 cuts to starve off ridership.

Its not just the dining car, lots of people here see it as the begining of the end. (a la the 1960's) .  Is the sky falling?  IDK.  I dont think so, but a lot of ppl here were around in the 1960's, and are seeing "deja vu all over again". 

Of course there are some for whom the dining car is the highlight of their train travel.  This is literally and figuratively "taking the steak off their table"

Keep in mind that since the STAR downgrade a few summers ago, the METEOR gets an extra coach during the summer and Thanksgiving holidays (also extra sleeper during Christmas/Thanksgiving) and the STAR remains 4 coaches/2 sleepers.  The STAR used to get extra cars but not since the downgrade.  I would infer that when passengers have had the opportunity to chose that they select the METEOR because of its amenities.  Will this continue to be the case this Thanksgiving following the downgrade?
Andy

I think it is wrong to say, all that people want (young or old) is "transportation", and to arrive on time , because -

All modes offer transportation.  All will get you from A to B..  It's what else they offer that counts - and here is where diners come in (and sleepers, etc.)

So, what does each mode offer - other than just transportation
.  Air --- un matched speed - and not much else.  and people will always want this./ but comes with airport hassles & cramped cabins
.  Bus - low fares - but cramped -- not too good for long hauls
.  Auto -  economical - flexible - no schedules, but stressful, especially on unfamiliar highways between cities, or on long hauls., rain, speeding trucks
.  Rail -  scenery - dining service - sleepers - space to walk around - even speed (Acela) - and at one time luxury (Bdway. - Century)

I wish I could convince people to stop looking at passenger trains as just transportation - and look at them as a PRODUCT  with something to sell customers that no one else can. 
I would call the new diners - if used properly - luxurious, and a unique way to have dinner at 79mph,  No other mode can offer this "Product".

Now, if you strip trains of everything but transportation - as Anderson seems to want -  then rail has no "product" to sell, because the other modes do as good a job; or better, of offering transportation. Trains needs somerthin more that this to sell the public,

This is why the downgraded food service hurts -- it hurts the unique Product  that trains offer.  Cost cutting that affects the customer is such a bad idea.


 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/19 12:31 by ronald321.

Don't give me a box of food and tell me to eat in my room. I like a real table. Not asking for much.

Posted from Android

When gthe Superliner diners were put on 5/6, you had hot lamb, prime rib, steak, fish, chicken, real china, steel forks and knives. Yes, we are back to 1968 again

stash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't give me a box of food and tell me to eat in
> my room. I like a real table. Not asking for much.
>
>
> Posted from Android

The first part, you can't fix.  The second, part eat in the "sleeper lounge".  Lotsa tables.

twropr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keep in mind that since the STAR downgrade a few
> summers ago, the METEOR gets an extra coach during
> the summer and Thanksgiving holidays (also extra
> sleeper during Christmas/Thanksgiving) and the
> STAR remains 4 coaches/2 sleepers.  The STAR used
> to get extra cars but not since the downgrade.  I
> would infer that when passengers have had the
> opportunity to chose that they select the METEOR
> because of its amenities.  Will this continue to
> be the case this Thanksgiving following the
> downgrade?
> Andy

The only problem with the Star vs Meteor comparison is that the Meteor used to have better patronage before the change.  Most likely due to the shorter trip to points in Florida.  The Star serves different intermediate towns, but if you are going from the NEC area to Florida, the Meteor is a better choice as you save a few hours.  I was surprised when the diner came off the Star that ridership did not seem to suffer, I fully expected it, but then again I always used it to an intermediate stop and did not pay a whole lot of attention to how many passengers were NEC-Florida bound or a local stop.

Also, from personal observation, when the diner first came off there were quite a few upset people who did not realize all they had was a cafe car, but over time no one seemed to mind.  They knew what the food options were and I rarely heard any complaints.  So overall, I am not so sure the downgrade is going to be that big of a deal to most travelers.  Those of us on here may not like it, but for the general family who probably didn't want to spend around $100 on dinner, the cafe fare or the newfangled food will probably not be that big of a deal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/19 14:21 by Cole42.

The worst part of it is NO food service whatever for Lake Shore Ltd coach passengers between New York City and Albany. Northbound that is between 3:40 and after 7pm. West of there, there is no place to sit down and eat it except to schlep back for up to 6 coaches. 

They could stick a dinette car on the train and have it removed/added with the dual-mode loco, or place a 2nd LSA in the diner to handle money and handle some takeout service for that segment, as they do on the Empire Builder's diner west of Spokane, since its lounge car went to Portland. 

Amtrak does not care even though the panel schedule says "Lounge", with no reference to the route limitation. Their goal is to drive down ridership. 

The main difference in the new food options seems to be that you can't have it prepared the way you want it. Well done or rare. Sauce or not. So much for choice. With that take it as is or leave it mentality, I'll choose not to ride. That might work on a short plane flight, but it won't work on an overnight train journey that spans one or two meal times. 

joemvcnj Wrote: (in part)
-------------------------------------------------------
> The worst part of it is NO food service whatever
> for Lake Shore Ltd coach passengers between New
> York City and Albany. Northbound that is between
> 3:40 and after 7pm. West of there, there is no
> place to sit down and eat it except to schlep back
> for up to 6 coaches. 
>
October 1, dinette coming to the NY section.

Wil the NY dinette come off at Albany, or will the Boston one operate only east of Albany (as in the 1970's) ? 

Marketing 101 for LD pax trains, "Sell the rattle & shake, not the steak."

don't know yet

Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wil the NY dinette come off at Albany, or will the
> Boston one operate only east of Albany (as in the
> 1970's) ? 

Flyer92122 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s not so much the loss of diners most of us
> are concerned about. Food service should be
> tweaked and evolve. This curent scheme however is
> just one ploy in Amtrak’s CEO’s plan to
> eliminate most trains outside the NEC, Chicago and
> California.  I could probably name 20
> questionable downgrades, changes and outright lies
> Richard Anderson has made to back this up. Death
> by a 1000 cuts to starve off ridership.

You're dead on Flyer because that's my viewpoint, all Airline Boy is doing is finding ways to dismantle Amtrak, it just sucks you got some people on this board who deny that, but the evidence speaks for itself!

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Their goal is to drive down ridership. 

The first cuts of 1,000 cuts was what, 5-6 years ago already when morning newspapers were no longer placed under the doors in the sleepers?  I think they took away the canned sodas from the sleepers about the same time.  (while editing this, I just remembered the loss of route guides and dinner mints on the bed when made down preceded the newspaper cuts)  The savings were minor, and the amenity 'loss' to passengers was not an issue.  Then came changes in the dining car from the disappearance of fresh flowers, downgraded food quality (including loss of ice cream!), real china, and lastly, real table cloths.  Again, no major 'loss' to passengers.  Maybe a handful decided 'never again' at that point, but just a few, I'm sure.

Then the diner disappeared off the Silver Star.  Fortunately, they reduced the sleeper fare by about $100 NYP to Florida.  THAT likely convinced past- and potential sleeper passengers to take the train account the lower prices.  As a result, Sliver Star patronage went UP!  About a year later, the Lakeshore Ltd lost its diner and it was replaced with 'diner lite' ...aka full cafe car with a 2 person staff serving premade heated meals.  Not terrible, in my opinion, but it wasn't freshly cooked.  Then 'Contemporary Dining' or whatever they call the boxed dog food.  And unlike the Star, the reduction of food service and quality was NOT accompanied by a reduced sleeper fare!  THAT and THAT ALONE is what pisses me off the most about Contemporary Dining.  It's like reserving a full size rental car and they substitute a sub compact when you get there with NO reduction of charges!  It can only be discribed as robbery!  And now they're about to do it to the rest of the trains east of the Mississippi, except Auto Train.  Why not Auto Train too?  Because they already make a very good profit on carrying the cars! 

Throw in the loss of rolls and salads served at dinner (mostly request only, but once or twice on western trains this past April they were provided without asking), loss of apple juice in the mornings in sleepers (orange juice only these days), coffee available apparently until the pot runs out, if the SCA even MADE up a pot, reduced general maintenance of the existing Viewliner I sleepers (filthy carpeting, tray table pulling away from the wall, and even more on-the-road engine failures due to (presumably), reduced maintenance, so yes, Joemvcnj is 100% right...the goal IS to drive away long distance passengers.  Did I mention what appears to be fewer coaches on western trains compared to a year ago?

I've personally witnessed all these various cuts (of 1,000) as I typically spend 15 or more nights in a sleeper each year these days (It helps to be retired).  Anderson is simply continuing what past Amtrak presidents have done to live within budget constraints and Congressional mandates (Mica, et al).  Unfortunately, the easiest, 'low hanging fruit' cuts were already made before Anderson took over.  So the cuts are more obvious and more detrimental to continued ridership.  But then, that achieves the desired goal...reduced ridership results in fewer cars per train which results in reduced ridership due to sold out conditions, and so on.  Ultimately, when the ridership gets to a certain point, discontinuance will be justified.

And, for what it's worth, I read a few months ago where Metra (in Chicago) is closing some low-pattronage stations.  I think the number was less than 20 boardings per day or something like that.  Apparently, Anderson is using the same logic to remove ticket agents and checked baggage at smaller stations.  How long will it be until those same stations get closed altogether?
  
 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is wrong to say, all that people want
> (young or old) is "transportation", and to arrive
> on time , because -
>
> All modes offer transportation.  All will get you
> from A to B..  It's what else they offer that
> counts - and here is where diners come in (and
> sleepers, etc.)
>
> So, what does each mode offer - other than just
> transportation
> .  Air --- un matched speed - and not much
> else.  and people will always want this./ but
> comes with airport hassles & cramped cabins
> .  Bus - low fares - but cramped -- not too good
> for long hauls
> .  Auto -  economical - flexible - no schedules,
> but stressful, especially on unfamiliar highways
> between cities, or on long hauls., rain, speeding
> trucks
> .  Rail -  scenery - dining service - sleepers -
> space to walk around - even speed (Acela) - and at
> one time luxury (Bdway. - Century)
>
> I wish I could convince people to stop looking at
> passenger trains as just transportation - and look
> at them as a PRODUCT  with something to sell
> customers that no one else can. 
> I would call the new diners - if used properly -
> luxurious, and a unique way to have dinner at
> 79mph,  No other mode can offer this "Product".
>
> Now, if you strip trains of everything but
> transportation - as Anderson seems to want - 
> then rail has no "product" to sell, because the
> other modes do as good a job; or better, of
> offering transportation. Trains needs somerthin
> more that this to sell the public,
>
> This is why the downgraded food service hurts --
> it hurts the unique Product  that trains offer. 
> Cost cutting that affects the customer is such a
> bad idea.
>

Even business banking is seen as "product." What is the user getting in their banking or transportation experience. It's all an experience packaged into a product. How do you make the product more attractive to get a higher price. Business Class as a step up. Touring Class likely makes more sense for "business class" on say the Vermonter or Maple Leaf. Are people really travelling "for business" between St. Albans, VT and Springfield, MA. Not many. People want the 2x1 seating in the business class for comfortability on their transportation experience. VIA markets this well in a product called "Touring Class" on the Prince Rupert Train, and used to have the same on the Ocean, before they just upgraded everything. Is terminology correct? Does it make sense to the end user? How can one charge more for the overall product? It is a different way of thinking about things as you hopefully sell more than just a "coach fare." Product buckets other things in.....and tries to do it automatically (pre-order or pay for meals like sleeping class). 

One benefit to the Sleeping Class now on Amtrak - or after October 1, 2019 - you will have access 24 hours a day to what was known as the Viewliner Diner or Superliner Diner/Superliner Cross Country Cafe. This gives sleeper car passengers their own unique lounge......Before you only had access to it at meal times. 

As much as I am wary of the whole dining and F&B change for long distance trains, Amtrak seems to be doing nothing to try and spin this with more PR - brand new Viewliner cars with double row of windows will now be a lounge for sleeping car passengers to enjoy a new and contemporary form of dining. These are cars that are brand-new for passenger enjoyment, complete with bar service - blah blah blah. It's BRAND NEW to the Cardinal altogether and perhaps an improvement (although return to Superliner equipment and termination in Washington DC would be better - in MY opinion). Kills me that Amtrak can't get the full byline. 

Well you have a say in this, do not ride, communicate your views to the appropriate people that can effect change.  If you do ride, make the best of it, enjoy the views and light friendly conversations with your fellow passengers.   I really do not want to dine across the table from someone that has decided to grind on and on about what’s wrong and about the good old days.   Recent experience on the SWC.    

I think travelers have changed, not everyone these days is looks forward to dining with strangers, how many people chat with strangers inches away on an airplane?  Yes, most of us have throughly enjoyed chatting with the European travelers or Uncle Clem and Vera from rural America.  Look at the lounge cars, uses are shifting from reading books, knitting, crochet to electronic devices, sign of the times.   Adjust and enjoy your remaining golden years. 

Me personally, I’ve been most impacted by the changes in private railcars, so for me this ain’t the end of the world.