Passenger Trains > WSDOT $37.5 million for new Cascades trainsets

The U.S. Department of Transportation will award the Washington State Department of Transportation up to $37,500,000 for the Washington State Passenger Rail Car Replacement project. 

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/wsdot-awarded-up-to-375-million-for-passenger-rail-car-replacement-project/977713443?fbclid=IwAR08xcTy5Jvfjt8_8Weq2Jwyu5jFCg6U3RnyKXACIgSmJCuG40Rt7maslro

WSDOT says it'll cost $25M per trainset, they need 3, so this is only half of what is needed.  Not sure where the rest will come from. 

Steve Carter
Gig Harbor, WA
My Photography



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/19 22:15 by DelMonteX.

I'LL take one of those $25 train sets!

Since they need $75 million and the Federal government is giving them $37.5 million, which is half, I would bet the Federal funds are a 50%-50% matching grant and Washington State is paying for the other half.

"The new train cars won’t be ready until the mid-2020s, and state officials are working with Amtrak to find interim replacements."

Amtrak/Pacific Northwest Corridor only had four total sets of the Talgo VI, and then two of the Talgo 8's? 

What trainsets are current assigned to the Pacific Northwest or holding down the schedules? Is the Seattle to Vancouver, BC trainset that leaves Seattle in the early morning a non-Talgo trainset? 

Amtrak is waiting on Midwest and California single level corridor trains and California. Is there a delivery date for these cars? I've given up trying to figure out when those train sets are coming to fruition. The Midwestern corridor trains, when they come online, will leave spare Horizons, which possibly could be interim replacements, but it says the new train cars will be read in mid-2020s.........Does WSDOT have the new trainsets already ordered, to be delivered mid-2020s or will the replacement cars be a combination of the two Talgo 8 trainsets that Amtrak has in storage (e.g. the Wisconsin Talgos that had been original planned/built)? 

First and foremost - how many trainsets are required for service in the Pacific Northwest and what' equipment is currently holding down that schedule? I thought the transet running from Seattle to Vancouver, BC was running with a Superliner trainset, but maybe not?

I do hope the "new replacement" train sets have large windows, as this was a nice feature to have on this route. 



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/19 20:45 by jp1822.

BNSF6400 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since they need $75 million and the Federal
> government is giving them $37.5 million, which is
> half, I would bet the Federal funds are a 50%-50%
> matching grant and Washington State is paying for
> the other half.

Yes, the question is where is WSDOT going to get $37.5 million?
 

Steve Carter
Gig Harbor, WA
My Photography

Apparently there were 5 Talgo VI sets and 2 Talgo 8's.    Obviously one trainset was destroyed in the Dupont crash and another set was sent for repairs after a relatively minor derailment at Bridge 14 (not sure of the status of that set).    I do believe Superliners are filling in on the Vancouver BC runs. 

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The new train cars won’t be ready until the
> mid-2020s, and state officials are working with
> Amtrak to find interim replacements."
>
> Amtrak/Pacific Northwest Corridor only had four
> total sets of the Talgo VI, and then two of the
> Talgo 8's? 
>
> What trainsets are current assigned to the Pacific
> Northwest or holding down the schedules? Is the
> Seattle to Vancouver, BC trainset that leaves
> Seattle in the early morning a non-Talgo
> trainset? 
>
> Amtrak is waiting on Midwest and California single
> level corridor trains and California. Is there a
> delivery date for these cars? I've given up trying
> to figure out when those train sets are coming to
> fruition. The Midwestern corridor trains, when
> they come online, will leave spare Horizons, which
> possibly could be interim replacements, but it
> says the new train cars will be read in
> mid-2020s.........Does WSDOT have the new
> trainsets already ordered, to be delivered
> mid-2020s or will the replacement cars be a
> combination of the two Talgo 8 trainsets that
> Amtrak has in storage (e.g. the Wisconsin Talgos
> that had been original planned/built)? 
>
> First and foremost - how many trainsets are
> required for service in the Pacific Northwest and
> what' equipment is currently holding down that
> schedule? I thought the transet running from
> Seattle to Vancouver, BC was running with a
> Superliner trainset, but maybe not?
>
> I do hope the "new replacement" train sets have
> large windows, as this was a nice feature to have
> on this route. 

Steve Carter
Gig Harbor, WA
My Photography

I believe there are still two Talgo 8 train-sets still sitting unused. Since it will be years before new equipment will be ready why not use them as they have advantages over the 6s.  I have heard that there crashworthiness is better than the 6s.  Sad to see them just sitting unused.

How much time does a Talgo save over a conventional train south of Portland and north of Seattle ? 

When I was in Seattle last week, I saw a Talgo set being used on the AM train to Vancouver. Maybe that was the exception, and not the rule.

Posted from iPhone

If WSDOT is smart, they will use that money to purchase the two Talgo Series 8 trains that were rejected by Wisconsin.  Talgo has offered the sets at bargain prices (from what I hear less than half of what Oregon paid fro their two sets)
and says they could easily be modified, made into 3 sets and ready in six months to a year.  That would give the Pacific Northwest 5 Series 8 trains that meet the FRA safety requirements.  If there were no service expansion between Portland and Seattle, the corridor could operate with these 5 sets.
Amtrak currently has no spare equipment. Whatever they had, Propeller Head sold and as noted, it will be at least 5 years before any of the Siemens equipment starts arriving.  So my question is where is the interim equipment going to come from?
The Washington State and Oregon DOTs have 20 years worth of experience with Talgo.  In my not so humble opinion, it would be really stupid to throw that away As a Washington State taxpayer, I want my money spent wisely and purchasing the two Series 8 Talgos would be a good and wise investment.
    

the WSDOT 8/20/2019 email specifically stated that they will "procure the new passenger train equpment as part of Amtrak's 2019-20 national equipment replacement contract"....sounds to me like WSDOT is going for the long term versus short term solution.    Arlen

Curiosity question, what's the maximum number of Cascade trains that could be run under the current contracts, track setup (would the bypass allow for extra runs), and any other conidtions or restrictions?  How many trainsets would be needed to support that "max build out".  I know TAW was heavily involved with the project, hopefully he sees this thread.  I used to ride the Capitol Corridor years ago and that service continued to increase frequencies as equipment (and UP contracts) allowed.  Was wondering if something similar was planned for the Cascades as part of a 10-20 year plan.

While I know trains are expensive, the numbers quoted make me stop and wonder how much equipment utliziation can WDOT get to help their return on investment numbers.  I know they aren't trying to "make" money, but hopefully more usage means more revenue to help pay for things.

Nathan

the reason for the by pass was specifically to allow, a BNSF requirement, the running of more trains and the avoidance of the single track tunnel.....while the media focused on the 10 or so minutes time savings....the important, to me at least, was the additional roundtrips possible between Portland and Seattle.      Arlen

atsf121 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>  I know TAW was
> heavily involved with the project, hopefully he
> sees this thread.  

I'm in LA ridinv trains. It's too much to answer on the phone. I'm hoping to have time on the computer in thd (Tbursday) morning.

TAW

Looking forward to your input.



TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> atsf121 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >  I know TAW was
> > heavily involved with the project, hopefully he
> > sees this thread.  
>
> I'm in LA ridinv trains. It's too much to answer
> on the phone. I'm hoping to have time on the
> computer in thd (Tbursday) morning.
>
> TAW

Steve Carter
Gig Harbor, WA
My Photography

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How much time does a Talgo save over a
> conventional train south of Portland and north of
> Seattle ? 

Around 30 minutes. Although if they went with seamen cars I hear they'll let them do talgo speed

Posted from Android

The worse option of removing the 2 good version VI sets and replacing with the 2 Wisconsin VIII sets and reducing daily round trips from 6 to 4.


https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/FRA-announces-272-million-in-state-of-good-repair-grants--58387

Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT), which was awarded up to $37.5 million to procure three new consists for use in the Amtrak Cascades service between Eugene, Oregon, and Vancouver, British Columbia. The project will replace the three Washington state-owned Talgo VI trainsets: two used in current service and one damaged in the December 2017 derailment. The loss of the damaged trainset reduced the Amtrak Cascades schedule from six to four daily round trips. The project will enable WSDOT to meet existing and anticipated passenger demand, and allow Washington to retire its Talgo VI trainsets.

Posted from Android

Under the current schedule, Amtrak runs 4 trains between Seattle and Portland and two trains between Seattle and Vancouver, BC.  The Port Defiance bypass would have increased that number to six trains between Seattle and Portland with no additional equipment. As a comparison, the current Cascades schedule requires 3 hours 30 minutes between Seattle and Portland.  The Coast Starlight. bu comparison requires 4 hours and 15 minutes. The difference is the passive tilt mechanism used by Talgo which allows higher speeds going around curves.    Unless the new equipment has some kind of passive tilt mechanism the longer schedules will become the norm.  Even if the Port Defiance bypass is reinstated, the amount of time saved will not compensate for the lower speeds required.  
What bothers me is this is going to be a one size fits all approach to fit the needs of several different types of needs. What is important to realize is that the route profile for the Cascadia Corridor is very similar to the route profile of the NEC between Boston and NYC - alot of curves and bridges. The passive tilt mechanism of the Talgo is what allowed the trains to negotiate the profile at higher speeds, which reduced travel times and allowed increased service. Therefore, this approach may not be beneficial to the needs of the corridor.
Another item of note is that the idea of high speed train service between Portland and Vancouver, BC is once again being studied.  Should it come about, what I find interesting is that the current Talgo Series 8 trains would require very little modification to adapt to 150 mph service as proposed thus eliminating the need for a whole new set of trains,
Having ridden a majority of Amtrak's routes and sampled just about all of their equipment, I much prefer the Talgo's superior ride and comfort.
And finally, forty year old Talgos are still operating extremely reliably in Europe. So, if Washington were to purchase the Series 8 Talgos, the equipment would not only be available in six months to a year, it would last well into the life cycle of the replacement equipment that won't be available until the mid 2020s.      
 

The Coast Starlight has around a half hour of schedule padding in that time, while the Cascades has very little.  I would guess the actual Talgo running time difference to be closer to 15 minutes.

That said, I would assume that the ability of the trainset to negotiate curves at higher speeds has relatively little to do with the tilt mechanism and more to do with maintaining a low center of gravity (i.e. Talgos vs. Superliners).  The engines don't tilt and can handle the curves just fine.  If that is true then the tilt is more about passenger comfort, limiting lateral forces around curves.  Incidentally the Point Defiance bypass replaces a stretch of curvy track with a straight line, so will reduce the time savings of the Talgos somewhat.

I wonder what is delaying the return to the bypass route at this time.  Originally it was slated for this spring, then supposedly delayed until the NTSB report came out.

dendroica Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That said, I would assume that the ability of the
> trainset to negotiate curves at higher speeds has
> relatively little to do with the tilt mechanism
> and more to do with maintaining a low center of
> gravity (i.e. Talgos vs. Superliners).  The
> engines don't tilt and can handle the curves just
> fine.  If that is true then the tilt is more
> about passenger comfort, limiting lateral forces
> around curves. 



Correct. Talgo tilt is only for passenger comfort. It has nothing to do with max speed, tracking, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/19 14:33 by Duna.